Near Death Experiences of Christians and others.

[William]

I have recently being injecting the idea of afterlife from the perspective of people who have experienced OOBEs and NDEs who for the most part are not Christians and share their experiences in the knowledge that they understand the experience as something which they had a part in creating for themselves.

Now I want to shift that from the non-Christian experiences being shared, to those of Christians who have had the same types of experiences and report back the same types of encounters but who don't always report that they understand their experience(s) to be something of their own creation.

It is my understanding that the experiences are both very similar in nature but also unique to the individual. 'Heavens' and 'hells' are also unique to the individual, but encounters with entities are remarkably similar.

THIS WOMAN DIED TWICE, FIRST WENT TO HELL, THEN EXPERIENCED HEAVEN AND MET JESUS

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In the channel description is the claim "100% PROOF THAT CHRISTIANITY IS THE TRUTH " which - if Christians were to do serious study on the subject of the Astral Realm from the testimonies of those who say they have experienced this, would come to understand that what it shows is that life doesn't end at the death of the body, and that Christianity is not the only religion which believes such and nor are Christians the only ones who have these experiences.

For that matter, many non religious individuals have experienced this, and while it does indeed change their whole outlook on life, and they adopt a more spiritual outlook, they do not see any necessity in suddenly coming to the conclusion that Christianity is 'The Truth' or that they have to become Christians because of their experiences.

The key points of this particular personal testimony are;

✪ She had her first NDE while in a coma, (2008) in which she ended up in a 'dark place' which she describes as extremely terrifying and refers to as 'hell' and accompanied by a feeling of dread and loss.

✪ Upon awakening from her coma, she recounted her experience to her loved ones gathered around her, and there was verification in relation to what she experienced with what they experienced in regard to a particular time in her experience to which she was aware of to do with the particular event she was speaking about, which coincided with the doctors notifying the family that she was dying and asking the family to gather and say their final goodbyes.

✪ This was then regarded as a miracle that she came through and recovered and due to being told a particular church group had been praying for her, she eventually joined that church and became a 'born again' Christian.

✪ In 2011 she fell sick again and was placed into a coma. She experienced an OOBE and this time it was different. She was floating above her body -looking down at it in the hospital bed. She then experienced a male entity join her and the entity was 'as bright as the sun' only looking at him didn't hurt her eyes.

✪ She experience a profound feeling of pure love from this entity - a love she has never felt from anyone in her whole experience, even from her family or parents... she describes the love was for her and was so strong and powerful and she just knew this entity loved her and this also gave her a feeling of being totally safe and protected and at peace.

✪ She says that there was telepathic communication between her and the entity but that she cannot remember what was said to her and she believes that the entity was Jesus himself.

✪ She comments that she is aware of other testimonies from others who have experienced similar encounters with this alternate reality. She also says she believes that she experienced 'a section of hell' rather then 'the whole of hell'. She says the same in regard to her second experience - that she was 'in a part of heaven' but did not see 'all of heaven'.

✪ She ends her testimony stating that 'we don't just die but go somewhere else and that hell is real, heaven is real and Jesus is real.

Now obviously she makes certain assumptions which are connected to her beliefs and these should be taken in that context. Her parting comments generally show what motivates a lot of Christians in relation to their beliefs.

Point being, as anyone can see through a bit of investigating into such stories will begin to see clearly that there is more than meets the eye as the pieces all fit together, re all such stories of such type experiences. Stories which not only are not going to go away or be so easily ignored/swept under the carpet - but will continue to grow in number as more people having them, share them with the world.



Questions for those who are Judaist, Christian or Muslim, are;

1: To what degree do you believe that these experiences are indicative of truth and need to regarded as genuine?

2: In relation to other faiths, where people encounter similar experiences, how does that stand in relation to your own faith in your own particular beliefs re the group/denomination you invest in?

3: In relation to those who are of no particular faith and have similar - life changing experiences, (these ones often become more spiritual but not necessarily develop religious beliefs) how does that stand in relation to your own faith in your own particular beliefs re the group/denomination you invest in?

Thanks.

[JehovahsWitness]

- Are you suggesting any such a search is doomed to failure? If so WHY?

Pretty sure you're the one who has suggested that by declaring that we can never know whether an alleged spiritual source ...

Okay well enough about me, what about YOU? What do you think?

- Are you suggesting any search to contact the SUPREME spirit is doomed to failure?



JW

[Mithrae]

- Are you suggesting any such a search is doomed to failure? If so WHY?

Pretty sure you're the one who has suggested that by declaring that we can never know whether an alleged spiritual source is the most evil demon or the holiest of gods.

That you then take the self-contradictory leap of asserting that your particular doctrines really were received from the supposed good side of spiritual reality doesn't demonstrate anything except your own seemingly irrational approach to this subject.

Okay well enough about me, what about YOU?

- Are you suggesting any search to contact the SUPREME spirit is doomed to failure?

I've never had any kind of spiritual experience, but it is blindingly obvious that if relying on our own personal and collective experience and judgement in such matters were illegitimate, it would be far more irrational to rely instead on the experience and judgement of a handful of religious cultists.

[JehovahsWitness]

[Replying to post 32 by Mithrae]

- Are you suggesting any search to contact the SUPREME spirit is doomed to failure?

JW

Oops I'm sorry you seem to be another poster, my question was actually for William but thanks for jumping in.


Have a good day,

JW

[Tcg]

- Are you suggesting any such a search is doomed to failure? If so WHY?

Pretty sure you're the one who has suggested that by declaring that we can never know whether an alleged spiritual source ...

Okay well enough about me, what about YOU? What do you think?

- Are you suggesting any search to contact the SUPREME spirit is doomed to failure?



JW

Do I understand this correctly? It seems that Mithrae is questioning your personal belief. He accused me of doing this in one of the threads he created and implied that it was a bad thing.

Either I misunderstand this line of questioning, or perhaps there is some sort of double standard in effect. Apparently it is acceptable as long as it is not in one of "his threads".

[Mithrae]

Do I understand this correctly? It seems that Mithrae is questioning your personal belief. He accused me of doing this in one of the threads he created and implied that it was a bad thing.

Either I misunderstand this line of questioning, or perhaps there is some sort of double standard in effect. Apparently it is acceptable as long as it is not in one of "his threads".

My comments were about the thread topic, and won't result in four pages of back-and-forth one-liners. Might be best to let it go and move on

###

[Replying to post 32 by Mithrae]

You did not answer the question.

- Are you suggesting any search to contact the SUPREME spirit is doomed to failure?

Just as you didn't answer my comments. But I did answer, at least in part, with the obvious fact that if indeed there is a spiritual reality then one of if not the most reliable ways to understand it must be our own personal and collective experience and judgement. That might include but certainly should not be dogmatically bound by the experience and judgement of a handful of religious cultists.

"SUPREME spirit" and "doomed to failure" are unjustifiably absolutist terms, as far as I can tell. You might as well ask whether science is doomed to failure until it uncovers the Supreme Truth about reality. In fact I rather suspect that it is the very height of arrogance and hubris to imagine that any genuinely 'supreme spirit' could be found, contacted or even remotely comprehended by you or I - as if reality simply were not worthy of our time unless we know everything all at once!

[JehovahsWitness]

[Replying to post 35 by Mithrae]

Did you see my edit?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 108#928108

[Mithrae]

Enhanced mental function with impaired brains (Example of this 44:42 in video.)

We cannot explain, using the materialistic model, that 'the mind is what the brain does' when there is no brain function but there is enhanced mind function.

I don't have anything to contribute to the thread in terms of a religious perspective, and haven't even looked into NDEs much either, but I had come across that case of Pam Reynolds a few years ago and found it very intriguing.

One thing that I wondered about is why near death seems to be a common factor in many such experiences - sometimes (often?) even when a person only thinks they're dying but really are at no actual risk at all. There's also reportedly often similarities in experience with advanced meditation practitioners, and with users of some psychotropic drugs.

I'm not entirely persuaded that there's something 'real' to any or all of that sort of stuff: But if there is, the common feature of meditation, drugs and mere anticipation (rather than genuine risk) of death would seem to be that they all potentially involve to some degree a feeling or perspective of dissociation of identity from the body, which might also explain why many others at risk of death don't have any such experience. If the body were merely akin to a womb or cocoon in which our 'spirit' grows and gestates (or puts on and off repeatedly, reincarnation style), circumstances or discipline which dissociates our identity from the body might be expected to sometimes cross the threshold of temporarily freeing the spirit, but not always.

Or it could all just be some weird effect of electrical pyrotechnics in the brain of course... but the few examples like Pam Reynolds' make that a difficult view to maintain.

[William]

[Replying to post 27 by JehovahsWitness]

- If the spirits are not equal, why then logically there is a Supreme Most High One, no?

The argument you presented was that there are evil beings. You also argue that their are good beings. In this, 'the spirits are not equal'. Is this not what you were referring to?

- If there is a Most High one, and since (despite your apparent reticence to admit it) humans are limited in our knowledge of this unseen world, what is objectionable about seeking the option from that One?

Your argument in relation to that is the 'seeking' is only done 'through the bible' which is a narrow option anyway and I have already pointed out the reasons why your argument cannot stand up to scrutiny. You are still avoiding answering my replies to that.

- Are you suggesting any such a search is doomed to failure? If so WHY?

Such a search based on your criteria is doomed to failure for the reasons I have already given. Perhaps the better option for you here is to reply to those observations I made, as is the best debate practice.

[JehovahsWitness]

[Replying to post 27 by JehovahsWitness]

- If the spirits are not equal, why then logically there is a Supreme Most High One, no?

The argument you presented was that there are evil beings. You also argue that their are good beings. In this, 'the spirits are not equal'. Is this not what you were referring to?

Thank you for taking the time to post a reply but I can't seem to see an answer to my question.. maybe I expressed myself badly, what I meant to ask is

- If the spirits are not equal, then logically there is a Supreme Most High One, would you not agree?

[William]

[Replying to post 37 by Mithrae]

The following post contains background information which I think is appropriate to the OP in relation to my personal experience and the accusations of Christian thinking involving demonic beings able to pretend to be angelic beings in order to trick humans, as member Jehovah's Witness argues.

I don't have anything to contribute to the thread in terms of a religious perspective, and haven't even looked into NDEs much either...

I am surprised that more Christians are not able to contribute to the topic since their religion is based upon belief in afterlife.
Perhaps it is simply that NDEs tend towards showing the individual the most likely reason religion evolved and also that these experiences might contradict dogma they have been led to believe in as 'truth'? Hopefully some can push through those beliefs and look into the subject with open minds and hearts...

...but I had come across that case of Pam Reynolds a few years ago and found it very intriguing.

Yes there are a lot of interesting cases. I will have a look into Pam's case as well, assuming you might want to discuss her's further...

One thing that I wondered about is why near death seems to be a common factor in many such experiences - sometimes (often?) even when a person only thinks they're dying but really are at no actual risk at all. There's also reportedly often similarities in experience with advanced meditation practitioners, and with users of some psychotropic drugs.

The topic is specific to NDEs. OOBEs and the like are also evidence of we being consciousness (spirit) within form. Astral Projection, for example, is when one learns to leave the body and experience the Astral Realm where one is able to deduce where all the religious belief systems derived and how human beliefs help to shape reality.

So whilst religions appear to be in competition with each other they share a common source, which many adherents are instructed to regard as untrustworthy (as per JWs argument) and ones trust has to be in what holy books - and those who interpret those books... and this effective cuts people off from the source by creating mediums and telling people they cannot trust themselves, but only the mediums.

From what I have come to understand, preliminary events which occur prior to OOBE are extremely unusual, and many (like myself) who have been influenced to believe in the idea of 'demons' etc (through Christian teachings in my case) will more than likely interpret the events as 'demonic attacks' - as I certainly did to begin with.

From my perspective I was a relative newbie Christian but my initial circumstances being on a sheep station and largely on my own I did not have any great influences outside of my own reading of the bible (and that mainly to do with Jesus specifically) so church instruction wasn't part of that process to begin with.

My first conscious encounter with the OOBE type symptoms were terrifying, and I thought I had been possessed! At that time I was living back in town and was going to a very small congregation of mixed denomination. I told my pastor about the experience and my main concerns were;

1: Why did the experience happen since I had 'given my life to Jesus' and was lead to believe that in doing so, I should be protected from such attacks of the devil - let alone being 'possessed'.

2: If I was 'possessed' how come I was still in love with Jesus and not frothing at the mouth and cursing him, as the biblical stories spoke of re possession.

The pastor told me that he didn't think I was possessed but could only surmise that it was some kind of 'test' and that I was doing alright and my faith - if anything - had increased after the event...

The initial event happened when I was 18 - I am now 55...back in the day no one spoke about such things and I have come to realize that this type of thing is more common than we think and simply was not (and even to this day) is not spoken of by all those who experience it.

In general terms the experience is referred to as 'sleep paralysis' I think it is the number one reason why people believe in demons/attacks from invisible entities which cause the unwary recipient to be terrified.

I certainly can vouch for the terror such a thing induces.

My faith in Jesus was not compromised or even shaken. My struggle was with trying to get answers from pastors and doctors.

I'm not entirely persuaded that there's something 'real' to any or all of that sort of stuff: But if there is, the common feature of meditation, drugs and mere anticipation (rather than genuine risk) of death would seem to be that they all potentially involve to some degree a feeling or perspective of dissociation of identity from the body, which might also explain why many others at risk of death don't have any such experience. If the body were merely akin to a womb or cocoon in which our 'spirit' grows and gestates (or puts on and off repeatedly, reincarnation style), circumstances or discipline which dissociates our identity from the body might be expected to sometimes cross the threshold of temporarily freeing the spirit, but not always.

Or it could all just be some weird effect of electrical pyrotechnics in the brain of course... but the few examples like Pam Reynolds' make that a difficult view to maintain.

From my own experiences and studies re OOBEs I have come to understand that human beings are wrapped up in the reality of their experience to the point where that reality becomes the dominant one and thus the one they identify with the most...naturally enough...so anything entering into that dominant reality will be reacted to primarily based upon the beliefs the individual has developed prior to any such experiences occurring and those beliefs also influence the manner in which the experiences unfold.

For me, those initial experiences were influential in my decision to take Jesus up on his offer - as it were - and I sold everything I owned, left my friends and family and stopped having any income, hit the road Jack and let GOD look after me like he did the lilies and the birds...

[font=Comic Sans MS]26 Look at the birds of the air, for they neither sow nor reap nor gather into barns; yet your heavenly Father feeds them. Are you not of more value than they? 27 Which of you by worrying can add one [a]cubit to his stature?

28 “So why do you worry about clothing? Consider the lilies of the field, how they grow: they neither toil nor spin; 29 and yet I say to you that even Solomon in all his glory was not [c]arrayed like one of these. 30 Now if God so clothes the grass of the field, which today is, and tomorrow is thrown into the oven, will He not much more clothe you, O you of little faith?

31 “Therefore do not worry, saying, ‘What shall we eat?’ or ‘What shall we drink?’ or ‘What shall we wear?’ 32 For after all these things the Gentiles seek. For your heavenly Father knows that you need all these things. 33 But seek first the kingdom of God and His righteousness, and all these things shall be added to you. 34 Therefore do not worry about tomorrow, for tomorrow will worry about its own things. Sufficient for the day is its own trouble.[/font]

...and also his instructions to his disciples regarding carrying nothing and 'going into the world preaching and teaching as he instructed'

Of course, there was nothing to 'preach or teach' being that Christianity was the dominant religion of the west already, but there was prayer and so I made it my mission to pray for the communities I encountered along the way, and see what would happen in relation to being looked after where I was in the position of not being able to look after myself, as it were.

As it turned out, many amazing things happened, but the bottom line for me was that even despite travelling extremely light, and having no money, GOD made sure I was well looked after, and this was not done by some kind of miraculous intervention from the sky but through people being moved to assist me, offer me food and shelter etc - and most of those who helped me were not even Christians! Indeed, when on occasion I did actually seek out the help of Christians they were not happy to be 'put out' by my request and responded for the most part as if I was an unwanted intrusion who should know better.
Note: Mostly I had no need to seek out assistance - and only in times where the need was there, did I approach Christians for help.

I only mention this to set up the situation for which my next experience happened...bearing in mind that I was still at this stage under the impression that these symptoms associated with sleep paralysis were 'spiritual attacks'

Without going into details, the points of the experience were as follows;

1: I had the feeling of being held down by an invisible entity. The feeling was unpleasant and regarded by me as 'evil'.

2: I heard footfalls and these proceeded right up to the door of my room (the door was open at the time and opened inwards - into the room).

3: When the entity stopped outside the door, ( I could not see the entity) [he] then laughed - one of those classical evil type laughs one hears in the movies - deep and mocking...I tried to speak (sleep paralysis means it is hard to move body parts or speak or scream etc) and the words I said (as best as possible) were "I am not afraid of you because Jesus is my Lord!" and when I spoke those words I was suddenly freed from the paralysis (note that at the time I was not aware of the term 'sleep paralysis) and as soon as I was free to move, I jumped off the top bunk and headed for the door to confront this being (whom I thought was Satan) only to be meet with an empty hallway. I checkout out the whole building but no one was there.

Obviously I assumed I was getting the attention due to my particular 'mission' I was on and what I was learning through that, and felt like I must be achieving something good, due to this attention.



The next time I encountered this entity was many mouths later and I had stopped being on the road (although I did, on occasion, still do so even after this) and resumed living within the system with my wife and young child. We had moved to a very small town and were renting at the time.

In this encounter I awoke 'feeling' a presence in the room. As soon as I was aware, I heard the same evil laugh and looking up from where I lay in the bed, I saw the entity.

Now at this time I had developed the idea that the OT GOD was not the same GOD Jesus spoke about, but was an ET - and the ET race was pretending to be GOD - the creator of the universe but was not, and so I assumed that the entity I was now seeing was the GOD of the OT - Jehovah himself, not "The Father" whom Jesus had spoken of as GOD, but the leader of the ET species, as it were.

The encounter probably didn't even last a minute, but in that time may things happened to which it took a good 20 years to properly understand in context.

1: The entity was definitely non human but still humanoid.
2: The entity had his arms crossed over his chest
3: The entity floated towards me as I was laying on my bed
4: The entity reached out an arm to touch me
5: When the entity was close enough to touch me I could see into his eyes
6: When I looked into his eyes I understood immediately that the entity loved me, unconditionally, and knew me better than I knew myself. There is no way I can explain how I knew that, but I knew it without a shadow of a doubt. I knew it and I felt it and it was undeniable.

While this was happening, I was also experiencing;

1: While was aware my body was paralyzed, I was consciously fairly calm - my body wanted to react like a frightened animal and escape this intrusion. The hairs on my skin were erect - If it could have climbed and clawed at the walls, it would have.

2: I was consciously angry at the intrusion and reacted in a confrontational manner. I was somewhat afraid but not as afraid as my body was wanting to react. I had great faith in GOD that I would not be harmed, but I also hated this entity more than anything. To me, this entity was the reason why the world was so messed up.

3: As it became apparent the entity was approaching me, as best I could I tried to speak and the words sounded as one would expect, coming from paralyzed lips.
The words I spoke as the entity was approaching me were;
"What do you want you ugly bastard!" - as I said that the entity began to reach out to touch me, I continued; - "No, even YOU have a father! You can leave! You can leave right NOW!"

4: As I said the word "NOW!" I managed to break through the paralysis and sit up, with my face directly in front of the entities face - right there an inch from his own...and in that final moment, the entity disappeared and I was free, eyes open and awake.

I can tell you I was livid at the intrusion but also felt that I had 'resisted the devil and he did flee' but I was also greatly conflicted, and it was that oxymoron of having been visited by 'the most evil being in the universe' and shown an undeniable truth that this entity 'loved me more than I could even love myself, or for that matter - a love so profound that I had never experienced such love, even from my own loved ones. Even to this day. I cannot even express that kind of love toward others, although I am far closer to doing so than I was at that time.

Now I can say that my reaction was somewhat a case of desperate bravado, and certainly it helped me face my fears and also I knew without doubt, that there could be nothing I would ever experience on this planet which I could ever now be afraid of.

So the main point of sharing these experiences is to acknowledge that I understand the reason Christians (as JW is doing) argue that all forms of NDEs are 'tricks of demons' but that this belief is debatable.

Just to end, I will share one more experience which happened the next night after the one above.

The same entity came to me again, only this time he was invisible. Again my body became paralyzed (but this time the acute fear and body response was absent) and I felt his hands clasp my wrists and pull me upwards from a prone position to an upright one.
Then I felt the entity firmly force my arms to cross over my chest in the same manner I had witnessed the position of his arms over his chest, the previous night. Once my arms were crossed over my chest, the entity then let go of my wrists.
It was then that I realized that I was gently 'bobbing' over my bed and that I was 'out of my body' The feeling was very pleasant and I wondered what to do and decided to go to my sons room, which was situated just off our own bedroom, behind windowed doors, which were closed.
As I thought to do this I began to float sideways towards the side of my bed and when I was no longer over the bed, I began to sink gently to the floor, and I felt my feet touch the floor I immediately jumped back into my body and awoke.

That was the very first time I had an OOBE.

That was also (to date) the last time I was visited by that entity.

So therein is the difference between NDEs and OOBEs. Generally it is understood that
the order of alternate experience is:

Dreams
Vivid Dreams
Lucid dreaming
OOBEs
Astral Projection

I cannot speak directly to use of psychotropic drugs as I have never used drugs as a form of entering into alternative realities, although of course I have looked into cases because of the similarity of experience.

Even today there is scant understanding as to what is actually occurring and human beings cast within the experience of their dominant reality and general acceptance that has the individual identifying as the form rather than the consciousness/spirit/'ghost' within the form, but for myself in study of my own experiences plus the many other studies done and many other experiences people have shared - and continue to share, I have great confidence in the picture unfolding through putting the pieces together that altogether the picture presented is the most likely truth of the matter...

Indeed, I became aware of this information just yesterday;

Could Multiple Personality Disorder Explain Life, the Universe and Everything?

Which coupled with everything else adds to the notion that these alternate realities people experience are not as many religious individuals believe and would have us all believe about them.