What did John mean?

[marco]

John's famous opening: “In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God� has caused much controversy. Some have suggested God should not have a second capital. Given John was a human, writing for humans, perhaps we should not excavate his words for meanings accessible only to a few men and angels.


Let's go with the text, including capitals. We've already discussed the non-capital interpretation.

Does this opening inevitably lead to Christ's being God?
Can we make sense of Word that allows us to see Jesus as human messenger, without discrediting John's authority?

[JehovahsWitness]

.... you've wrapped your arguments in a cloak of grammatical reasoning, inaccessible to the majority.

Emphasis MINE

You claim tigger has {qoute} "warped" his arguments implying that what he is saying is distorted and thus are by necessity an inaccurate reflection of what is true. Can you substaneate this claim with anything but axiom? What should his (unwarped) argument be and how are you in authority to say?

JW

[Tcg]

.... you've wrapped your arguments in a cloak of grammatical reasoning, inaccessible to the majority.

Emphasis MINE

You claim tigger has {qoute} "warped" his arguments implying that what he is saying is distorted and thus are by necessity an inaccurate reflection of what is true.

It is odd that even after emphasizing the word, "wrapped", you then {misquote} the very word you emphasized. You {quote} is as "warped".

Is there a deliberate reason for this {misquote} or did you simply make an error in reading the post as it is written?

[marco]

Are you perhaps aware that the early Greek manuscripts were all written in unicals, meaning capital letters, and had nothing that resembles modern punctuation?

Are you aware that the translators capitalised not because capitals were used in the original but because they deferred to God and capitalised his name, twice, as he was referred to twice.

You are doubtless awre of the following attempts at translation:

New International Version
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

New Living Translation
In the beginning the Word already existed. The Word was with God, and the Word was God.

English Standard Version
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

Berean Study Bible
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

Berean Literal Bible
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

New American Standard Bible
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

King James Bible
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

Christian Standard Bible
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

Contemporary English Version
In the beginning was the one who is called the Word. The Word was with God and was truly God.

Good News Translation
In the beginning the Word already existed; the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

Holman Christian Standard Bible
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

International Standard Version
In the beginning, the Word existed. The Word was with God, and the Word was God.

NET Bible
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was fully God.

New Heart English Bible
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

Aramaic Bible in Plain English
In the origin The Word had been existing and That Word had been existing with God and That Word was himself God.

GOD'S WORD® Translation
In the beginning the Word already existed. The Word was with God, and the Word was God.

New American Standard 1977
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

Jubilee Bible 2000
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with the God, and the Word was God.

King James 2000 Bible
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

American King James Version
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

American Standard Version
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

Douay-Rheims Bible
IN the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

Darby Bible Translation
In [the] beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

English Revised Version
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

Webster's Bible Translation
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

Weymouth New Testament
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

World English Bible
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

Young's Literal Translation
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God;




I am in no position to contest the veracity of the above translations, but if the exercise here is to revisit English renderings of Biblical passages, then I humbly submit that my qualifications are unequal to this task. I am specifically dealing with the text that the vast majority accept.

What you seem to be not understanding, as I have explained this to you before is that John 1:1 is what we in English call a PREDICATE NOMINATIVE, which is a renaming of the subject, "word" in the predicate (second part) of the sentence, following a form of the verb "be".

Well we in English call this a complement after the verb "to be", though factitive verbs can enjoy a complement too. When a preposition is used inflected languages obligingly decline the noun for the appropriate case ending. In some languages I've studied, there is in fact no verb to be in the present tense nor articles. I feel my understanding can cope with your grammatical labour, which is hardly slaying the Nemean lion. However, I have said we are discussing God, which the many translations prefer,not a god. Those who want to comment on the OP have simply to read John as most read him and decide if Jesus emerges as God from that. Or indeed unravel sense from John's message!

[William]

[Replying to post 11 by marco]

New International Version
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

New Living Translation
In the beginning the Word already existed. The Word was with God, and the Word was God.

English Standard Version
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

Berean Study Bible
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

Berean Literal Bible
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

New American Standard Bible
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

King James Bible
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

Christian Standard Bible
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

Contemporary English Version
In the beginning was the one who is called the Word. The Word was with God and was truly God.

Good News Translation
In the beginning the Word already existed; the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

Holman Christian Standard Bible
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

International Standard Version
In the beginning, the Word existed. The Word was with God, and the Word was God.

NET Bible
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was fully God.

New Heart English Bible
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

Aramaic Bible in Plain English
In the origin The Word had been existing and That Word had been existing with God and That Word was himself God.

GOD'S WORD® Translation
In the beginning the Word already existed. The Word was with God, and the Word was God.

New American Standard 1977
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

Jubilee Bible 2000
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with the God, and the Word was God.

King James 2000 Bible
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

American King James Version
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

American Standard Version
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

Douay-Rheims Bible
IN the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

Darby Bible Translation
In [the] beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

English Revised Version
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

Webster's Bible Translation
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

Weymouth New Testament
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

World English Bible
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

Young's Literal Translation
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God;

I get the impression from the above, that GOD and 'the Word' are the same. The 'word' is not sourced 'elsewhere'. The 'beginning' may refer to how the beginning came about 'because GOD spoke' The words GOD spoke, were 'of GOD' coming 'from GOD' and indistinguishable from that perspective. GOD and what GOD speaks are one and the same.

If I think something, then 'the thought is with me' If I speak that thought, then the words are from the thoughts that are with me. However, not all my thoughts are directly sourced with me. I get them from many places, but they are at least processed through me, so when I speak them they are still 'of me', but not in the same way that this passage is referring to.

Before the beginning of any thing, there was only GOD, and all that has to do with that, including GODs thoughts and words.

Indeed, perhaps GODs thoughts are GODs words.

[marco]

If I think something, then 'the thought is with me'

As a boy I had to recite the Latin: In principio verbum erat et Verbum erat apud Deum et Deus erat verbum. Order of words, in general, does not change the meaning. The word "apud" for with, instead of cum, is surprising and usually means "at the home of"; so the Vulgate translators took the meaning to be that the word resided with God. God was the reason or source of all meaning in the beginning. The discussions around the meaning of logos are fascinating, and inconclusive.

Jesus was the incarnation of this word; he walked around disseminating truth and saw himself as the metaphorical Truth in that his speech reflected what God prescribed; he obtained all power and authority from God, though he wasn't God of course, just the conveyor of the logos.

.

[polonius]

https://www.gotquestions.org/Jesus-the-Creator.html

“In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God� (John 1:1). There are three important things in this passage about Jesus and the Father: 1) Jesus was “in the beginning�—He was present at creation. Jesus had existed eternally with God. 2) Jesus is distinct from the Father—He was “with� God. 3) Jesus is the same as God in nature—He “was God.�
RESPONSE�

In the “Beginning. � Thus there was a time when he did not exist, since there was a beginning not an eternity.
.
“Jesus had existed eternally with God.� Where exactly does John 1 say that?

Was with God is much different than claiming that he was God. I was with my wife, but we are not the same person

[bjs]

[Replying to marco]

If we take the by far most common translation of “the Word was God� then John was not simply opening a way to Jesus being God; he was flat out saying that Jesus is God.

Every Jehovah’s Witness I have known has said that that John was not saying that Jesus is God. Every expert on Greek I have ever known, both modern and koine Greek, has said that John was saying that Jesus is God.

[tigger2]

[Replying to marco]

If we take the by far most common translation of “the Word was God� then John was not simply opening a way to Jesus being God; he was flat out saying that Jesus is God.

Every Jehovah’s Witness I have known has said that that John was not saying that Jesus is God. Every expert on Greek I have ever known, both modern and koine Greek, has said that John was saying that Jesus is God.

......................................

It is not surprising that trinitarian scholars would prefer the 'God' translation at John 1:1c and ignore any other honest alternate. However, notice this:

Trinitarian Greek expert, W. E. Vine, (although, for obvious reasons, he chooses not to accept it as the proper interpretation) admits that the literal translation of John 1:1c is: “a god was the Word�. - p. 490, An Expository Dictionary of New Testament Words, Thomas Nelson, Inc., 1983 printing.

Professor C. H. Dodd, director of the New English Bible project, also admits this is a proper literal translation:
“A possible translation [for John 1:1c] ... would be, ‘The Word was a god.’ As a word-for-word translation it cannot be faulted.� - Technical Papers for the Bible Translator, vol. 28, Jan. 1977.

The reason Prof. Dodd rejected “a god� as the actual meaning intended by John is simply because it upset his trinitarian interpretations of John’s Gospel!

Rev. J. W. Wenham wrote in his The Elements of New Testament Greek: “Therefore as far as grammar alone is concerned, such a sentence could be printed: θεὸς �στιν � λόγος, which would mean either, ‘The Word is a god’, or, ‘The Word is the god’.� - p. 35, Cambridge University Press, 1965.

(Of course if you carefully, properly examine this, you will find that the grammar really shows that ‘The Word is [or “was� in John 1:1c] a god’ is what John intended.)

Trinitarian NT scholar Prof. Murray J. Harris also admits that grammatically John 1:1c may be properly translated, ‘the Word was a god,’ but his trinitarian bias makes him claim that “John’s monotheism� will not allow such an interpretation. - p. 60, Jesus as God, Baker Book House, 1992. However, his acknowledgment of the use of “god� for men at John 10:34-36 and the use of “god/gods� for angels, judges, and other men in the Hebrew OT Scriptures contradicts his above excuse for not accepting the literal translation. - p. 202, Jesus as God.

And Dr. J. D. BeDuhn in his Truth in Translation states about John 1:1c:
“ ‘And the Word was a god.’ The preponderance of evidence from Greek grammar… supports this translation.� - p. 132, University Press of America, Inc., 2003.

Trinitarian Dr. Robert Young admits that a more literal translation of John 1:1c is “and a God (i.e. a Divine Being) was the Word� - p. 54, (‘New Covenant’ section), Young’s Concise Critical Bible Commentary, Baker Book House, 1977 printing.

And noted trinitarian scholar, author, and Bible translator, Dr. William Barclay wrote: “You could translate [John 1:1c], so far as the Greek goes: ‘the Word was a God’; but it seems obvious that this is so much against the whole of the rest of the New Testament that it is wrong.� - p. 205, Ever yours, edited by C. L. Rawlins, Labarum Publ., 1985.

You see, in ancient times many of God’s servants had no qualms about using the word “god� or “gods� for godly men, kings, judges, and even angels.

New Testament Greek expert Joseph H. Thayer defines theos:
“θεός is used of whatever can in any respect be likened to God or resembles him in any way: Hebraistically, i.q. God’s representative or vicegerent, of magistrates and judges.� - p. 288, Thayer’s Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament.

[marco]

......................................

It is not surprising that trinitarian scholars would prefer the 'God' translation at John 1:1c and ignore any other honest alternate.

I don't think we need to accuse the other side of dishonesty in preferring their translation. I can reach your conclusion without becoming steeped in grammatical considerations. In the beginning was the Word. That is God's reasoning incorporating his primal pronouncements.


And the word was with God: logos belonged entirely to God;


Then all these qualities constitute God. We say God is Love in a similar way. This is synecdoche, a part representing the whole. Or we can see it as metonymy, where related qualities are stated instead of God. The crown is in danger means the monarchy is in danger.


Then we move to Jesus conveying an aspect of God to earth, and allowing people to interact with God's word, through him. He is the vector of God's word; and we have said that God IS the logos, figuratively.


In this way Jesus himself becomes Truth or some abstract quality normally resident in God. He says he is the Way, the Truth and the Life - when he means he is the vector of these attributes.

Jesus by close association becomes that truth which we identify as God; but of course he is not literally God, just a conveyor of God's word. And that word, that principle of reason, existed before Abraham ever was. As the Truth, Jesus existed before Abraham..... in a figurative manner.

There's no need for deifications or Trinities; just figures of speech.

And your conclusion is mine,.

[JehovahsWitness]

Every Jehovah’s Witness I have known has said that that John was not saying that Jesus is God. Every expert on Greek I have ever known, both modern and koine Greek, has said that John was saying that Jesus is God.

Emphasis MINE


Really? Do you know any of the individuals connected with the translations and scholarly Greek commentaries below?

• ** Paul Wernle, (in The Beginnings of Christianity, vol. 1, The Rise of Religion [1903], 16). "a God"
  
  ** Interlineary Word for Word English Translation-Emphatic Diaglott, "In a beginning was the Word, and the Word was with the God, and a god was the Word."
  
  ** Newcome, 1808, "and the word was a god"
  
  ** Revised Version-Improved and Corrected, "the word was a god."
  
  ** Reijnier Rooleeuw, M.D. -The New Testament of Our Lord Jesus Christ, translated from the Greek, 1694, "and the Word was a god"
  
  ** John Crellius, Latin form of German, The 2 Books of John Crellius Fancus, Touching One God the Father, 1631, "The Word of Speech was a God"
  
  * Greek Orthodox /Arabic Calendar, incorporating portions of the 4 Gospels, Greek Orthodox Patriarchy or Beirut, May, 1983, "the word was with Allah[God] and the word was a god"
  
  ** Abner Kneeland-The New Testament in Greek and English, 1822, "The Word was a God"
  
  ** Robert Young, LL.D. (Concise Commentary on the Holy Bible [Grand Rapids: Baker, n.d.], 54). 1885, "and a God (i.e. a Divine Being) was the Word"
  
  ** Belsham N.T. 1809 “the Word was a god�
  
  ** Leicester Ambrose, The Final Theology, Volume 1, New York, New York; M.B. Sawyer and Company, 1879, "And the logos was a god"
  
  ** J.N. Jannaris, Zeitschrift fur die Newtestameutlich Wissencraft, (German periodical) 1901, and was a god"
  International Bible Translators N.T. 1981
  
  ** Joseph Priestley, LL.D., F.R.S. [Philadelphia: Thomas Dobson, 1794], 37). "a God"
  
  ** Lant Carpenter, LL.D (in Unitarianism in the Gospels [London: C. Stower, 1809], 156). "a God"
  
  ** Andrews Norton, D.D. [Cambridge: Brown, Shattuck, and Company, 1833], 74). "a god"
  
  ** Paul Wernle,(in The Beginnings of Christianity, vol. 1, The Rise of Religion [1903], 16). "a God"
  
  ** 21st Century Literal "and the [Marshal] [Word] was a god."
  
  ** George William Horner, The Coptic Version of the New Testament, 1911, and (a) God was the word"
  
  ** Siegfried Schulz, Das Evangelium nach Johannes, 1975, "And a god (or, of a divine kind) was the Word"
  
  ** James L. Tomanec, The New Testament of our Lord and Savior Jesus Anointed, 1958, [T]he Word was a God"
  
  ** John Samuel Thompson, The Montessoran; or The Gospel History According to the Four Evangelists, Baltimore; published by the translator, 1829, "the Logos was a god"
  
  ** Robert Young, LL.D. (Concise Commentary on the Holy Bible [Grand Rapids: Baker, n.d.], 54). 1885, "and a God (i.e. a Divine Being) was the Word"
  
  ** Jurgen Becker, Das Evangelium nach Johannes, 1979, "a God/god was the Logos/logos"

GOD LIKE / GODLY

• ** Johannes Schneider, Das Evangelium nach Johannes, 1978, "and godlike sort was the Logos"
  
  ** Charles A.L. Totten, The Gospel of History, 1900, "the Word was Deistic [=The Word was Godly]
  
  ** Prof. Felix Just, S.J. - Loyola Marymount University, "and god[-ly/-like] was the Word."
  
  ** Crellius,as quoted in The New Testament in an Improved Version "the Word was God's"
  
  ** Albrecht, 1957, "godlike Being/being had the Word/word"
  
  ** Menge, 1961, "God(=godlike Being/being) was the Word/word"
  
  ** Philip Harner, JBL, Vol. 92, 1974, "The Word had the same nature as God"
  
  ** Haenchen (tr. By R. Funk), 1984, "divine (of the category divinity)was the Logos"
  
  ** Ernest Findlay Scott, The Literature of the New Testament, New York, Columbia University Press, 1932, "and the Word was of divine nature"
  
  ** Lyder Brun (Norw. professor of NT theology), 1945, "the Word was of divine kind"
  
  ** Fredrich Pfaefflin, The New Testament, 1949, "was of divine Kind/kind"
  
  ** Ernest Findlay Scott, The Literature of the New Testament, New York, Columbia University Press, 1932, "and the Word was of divine nature"

DIVINE BEING/ PERSON

• ** Curt Stage, The New Testament, 1907, "The Word/word was itself a divine Being/being."
  
  ** J. Madsen, New Testament A Rendering , 1994, "the Word was a divine Being"
  
  ** Smit, 1960, "the word of the world was a divine being"
  
  ** La Bible du Centenaire, L’Evangile selon Jean, by Maurice Goguel,1928: “and the Word was a divine being
  
  ** Robert Harvey, D.D., Professor of New Testament Language and Literature, Westminster College, Cambridge, in The Historic Jesus in the New Testament, London, Student Movement Christian Press1931 "and the Logos was divine (a divine being)"
  
  ** Edward Harwood, H KAINH DIAQHKH. London, 1776, 2 vols; 2nd ed. 1784, 2 vols. 1768,"and was himself a divine person"
  
  ** Samuel Clarke, M.A., D.D., rector of St. James, Westminster, A Paraphrase on the Gospel of John, London " Divine Person."

DIVINE

• ** International English Bible-Extreme New Testament, 2001, "the Word was God*[ftn. or Deity, Divine, which is a better translation, because the Greek definite article is not present before this Greek word]
  
  ** Scholar's Version-The Five Gospels, 1993, "The Divine word and wisdom was there with God, and it was what God was"
  
  ** William Temple, Archbishop of York, Readings in St. John's Gospel, London, Macmillan & Co.,1933, "And the Word was divine."
  
  ** Ervin Edward Stringfellow (Prof. of NT Language and Literature/Drake University, 1943, "And the Word was Divine"
  
  ** Goodspeed's An American Translation, 1939, "the Word was divine"
  
  ** Moffatt's The Bible, 1972, "the Logos was divine"

RELATED POSTS

Further references favouring alternative renditions (tigger)
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 721#930721