Wishful thinking and the imagination: A Godless Christianity

[Tart]

To say someones beliefs is just "wishful thinking" and in the imagination is an accusation that suggest people are creating things in their mind, that they are creating beliefs that might not necessarily be true or have any evidence supporting them, but declaring it as truth...

This is actually a very common criticism against those who hold beliefs in a God.

But what I am coming to realize is that my beliefs in Christianity, seem to be based and rooted in the evidence, and are subject to change accordingly to the evidence. The only reason I ever believed in God was because Jesus Christ was shown to support that idea. That I had no idea what something like "salvation" was until it was logically explained, and made sense of by the witnesses. That my hope and faith are byproducts of the testimony of the witnesses, and the reasonable ideas that they gave for the belief in the God of Christianity... My belief is dependent on the evidence, and subject to change according to the evidence.

Indeed, it seems to me that my beliefs are not something I created, from wishful thinking and the imagination. But are instead founded in the evidences of Christianity...


On the other hand, I see nonbelievers and atheist come to conclusions about Christianity that there is no supporting evidences of. That their conclusions arent support by evidence, but instead by their own reasoning in their imagination, and their "wishful thinking" of a Godless Christianity.

There are many examples, and its easy to spot them. All you have to do is ask for evidence. For years i have been asking atheists for evidence to back up their beliefs about Jesus and Christianity.. And many have tried, but have given no solid evidence or reasoning that there was no Jesus, or he didnt meet the prophecies of the Messiah, or the witnesses made the entire story up, or that people lied about the entire religion. It seems like there is just no solid evidence supporting any of these things..

For example, one user recently claimed that there was probably 2 Jesus's, but had no supporting evidence of that (like this was created in his imagination). Another claimed that Jesus was created by the Romans in 300AD, but when pressed it turned out the only evidence for this claim was a pronunciation problem he thought up in his head from a language he never spoke (many may recognize this claim). Or another example is that Jesus was a creation from other myths, like the movie zeitgeist claims, but this has been totally discredited by scholars, and it turned out that people just thought this up in the early 1900's in their imaginations.

Granted, some of these claims are rooted in atheism, and may be atheist siting other atheist. Like if someone sited zeitgeist (where zeitgeist is a totally imagined up, created, explanation of Christianity not supported by any evidence), that would mean they are siting evidence, but its still just rooted in the imagination. It seems like the roots of all these claims are people creating beliefs in their heads of who Jesus was, how Christianity came to be, and the where it came from, and not basing it off the evidence or letting the evidence lead to their conclusions... (if they did, i believe they would be Christians (like Lee Strobel for example))

I mean, atheists and non believers cant even agree with themselves here... All these beliefs are all over the place, like Paul hallucinated his encounter with Christ, or Paul didnt even exist. Or Rome created Jesus and Jesus didnt exist, or Jesus was really a man but not the Son of God... I mean we see all of these claims, and they dont even support themselves...

It seems to me that, not only the best explanation is the one given in the scriptures by the prophets and the witnesses, but it is the only reasonable explanation...

But the Bottom line here is... Who is creating a belief here? My belief are simply observations of Christianity. I certainly did not create Christianity in any sense. I simply observe is claims as true... And it seems like all these other claims are things people are thinking up in their heads, like for example "Jesus is a myth".... The "wishful thinking" of a Godless Christianity.

Here is a supporting quote from an Agnostic New Testament Scholar.

"The idea that Jesus did not exist is a modern notion. It has no ancient precedents. It was made up in the eighteenth century. One might as well call it a modern myth, the myth of the mythical Jesus"~Bart Ehrman

[Tart]

[Replying to post 23 by Tart]

So do you believe Jesus wasn't raised form the dead? And He wasn't the Messiah?

If so, what evidence led you to believe that? And how do you make sense of the testimony of the disciples? Or the evidences of Christianity, to support what you believe is true?

What is my evidence?
1. The disciples can't be shown to exist. All they do is allegedly testify to testify to someone who also can't be shown to exist.
2. Resurrection is impossible.
3. So far I have been waiting on any evidence you say s true.

However, we can show Jesus did not exist readily:
Where are his works of carpentry? Surely the works of the world's greatest carpenter must fetch a hefty price at auction. Except they don't exist.
Where is the statement of Lazarus, perhaps Jesus' greatest work. Surely kings and Emperors would have liked to know what Lazarus' journey after death was like? Theologists and philosophers alike would have written paper upon paper about his testimony?

BUT THERE IS NOTHING.

Resurrection, transforming water to wine, quelling a storm are all essentially either impossible works, or the one doing them would be a fool to use these as a means to accomplish their goals.

So there is evidence.
Where's yours?

I get you dont believe in miracles, or divine acts... Can you prove that to me that these things arent possible?

And everything you said is depended on Jesus being historical, is laughable... We dont have carpentry from Jesus, so therefor hes fiction?

lol... How do you know he even made anything? Or tat it wasnt lost to history?

[Tcg]

To be a Christian is to agree, Jesus was the Messiah, He came in the flesh, and was risen from the dead... That is Christianity.

Nope. To be a Christian means one follows what they believe to be the teachings of the character from the NT known as Jesus Christ. You don't have to believe he was the messiah. You don't have to believe he was human. You don't have to believe he rose from the dead. You don't even have to believe in god.

You should go read the Bible instead of create what you think Christianity is in your head... The teaching of scripture tells us believers believe Christ came in the flesh, and to be saved, you confess Jesus with the mouth and believe he was raised in your heart...

Lets stop thinking up what we believe Christianity is in our heads... That is the entire point?

Or do you have evidence that supports what you said, and that im wrong?

Sure. Reality. I've known many Christians that don't accept the things you claim. You are simply describing your version of Christianity. Sorry to break the news to you, but it isn't the only one.

Nope, this is outlined in the Bible... But ill let you go ahead and present your evidence...

I already did. Not surprisingly, you failed to address it.

Do you think there can be married bachelors too?

There is absolutely no connection between the facts I presented and this absurd question.

[Tart]

To be a Christian is to agree, Jesus was the Messiah, He came in the flesh, and was risen from the dead... That is Christianity.

Nope. To be a Christian means one follows what they believe to be the teachings of the character from the NT known as Jesus Christ. You don't have to believe he was the messiah. You don't have to believe he was human. You don't have to believe he rose from the dead. You don't even have to believe in god.

You should go read the Bible instead of create what you think Christianity is in your head... The teaching of scripture tells us believers believe Christ came in the flesh, and to be saved, you confess Jesus with the mouth and believe he was raised in your heart...

Lets stop thinking up what we believe Christianity is in our heads... That is the entire point?

Or do you have evidence that supports what you said, and that im wrong?

Sure. Reality. I've known many Christians that don't accept the things you claim. You are simply describing your version of Christianity. Sorry to break the news to you, but it isn't the only one.

Nope, this is outlined in the Bible... But ill let you go ahead and present your evidence...

I already did. Not surprisingly, you failed to address it.

Do you think there can be married bachelors too?

There is absolutely no connection between the facts I presented and this absurd question.

Ok, heres my evdience of what makes a Christian..

This is how you can recognize the Spirit of God: Every spirit that acknowledges that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God,~John

"If you declare with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved."~Paul


And i didnt see any evdience that you claim you had. You claimed

"I've known many Christians that don't accept the things you claim."~Tcg

Lets ignore the fact that its a complete contradiction of terms, were is the evidence you have of "Christian that dont accept..."?

[Tcg]

Ok, heres my evdience of what makes a Christian..

This is how you can recognize the Spirit of God: Every spirit that acknowledges that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God,~John

"If you declare with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved."~Paul

This isn't evidence as to what it takes to be a Christian. Neither unreferenced quote even addresses the subject.

And i didnt see any evdience that you claim you had. You claimed

"I've known many Christians that don't accept the things you claim."~Tcg

Lets ignore the fact that its a complete contradiction of terms, were is the evidence you have of "Christian that dont accept..."?

Quakers.

[Tart]

Ok, heres my evdience of what makes a Christian..

This is how you can recognize the Spirit of God: Every spirit that acknowledges that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God,~John

"If you declare with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved."~Paul

This isn't evidence as to what it takes to be a Christian. Neither unreferenced quote even addresses the subject.

And i didnt see any evdience that you claim you had. You claimed

"I've known many Christians that don't accept the things you claim."~Tcg

Lets ignore the fact that its a complete contradiction of terms, were is the evidence you have of "Christian that dont accept..."?

Quakers.

Well im not really interested in debating this anymore with you, Christianity is outlined in scripture... If you dont believe in the testimony of the witnesses, and how they outlined the beliefs of Christians, then your as much as a 'christian' as Hitler was (maybe an extreme comparison, but the point is that both contradict what a Christian is).

5 does not equal 6... Period...

[Willum]

[Replying to post 31 by Tart]

Can I prove that turning water to wine is impossible?
Are you alleging Jesus had a nuclear machine with him? If not, it is impossible.
Are you alleging that thermodynamics and cellular decay can be reverse by any force or intelligence? If so, you are wrong, or need to suggest a mechanism by which even a creature of unlimited power can do so, otherwise, impossible.

So what would be proof if not what we know?
Are you seriously claiming what we don't know is proof?
You should read what riku has to say...

Yes, we don't have carpentry from the most fictitious man ever told, so he is a fairy tale.
We have no record of Lazarus, when his life should be the most famous literature in history.

You seem to be shifting the burden of (dis)proving fairy tales to me, when you have nothing, and when I demonstrate it to you, you say that doesn't prove anything.

LET ME EXPLAIN WHAT DOESN'T PROVE ANYTHING:
Anything you have claimed.

[Tcg]

Ok, heres my evdience of what makes a Christian..

This is how you can recognize the Spirit of God: Every spirit that acknowledges that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God,~John

"If you declare with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved."~Paul

This isn't evidence as to what it takes to be a Christian. Neither unreferenced quote even addresses the subject.

And i didnt see any evdience that you claim you had. You claimed

"I've known many Christians that don't accept the things you claim."~Tcg

Lets ignore the fact that its a complete contradiction of terms, were is the evidence you have of "Christian that dont accept..."?

Quakers.

Well im not really interested in debating this anymore with you, Christianity is outlined in scripture...

Scripture is interpreted in a near endless number of ways. Yours is simply one amongst many.

If you dont believe in the testimony of the witnesses, and how they outlined the beliefs of Christians, then your as much as a 'christian'...

What makes you think I claim to be a Christian?

as Hitler was (maybe an extreme comparison, but the point is that both contradict what a Christian is).

Hitler was at one time a Christian. He remained a theist his whole life. He very well may have remained a Christian his whole life as well.

5 does not equal 6... Period...

Another absurd analogy that has nothing to do with the topic or anything I have said.

[Tart]

[Replying to post 31 by Tart]

Can I prove that turning water to wine is impossible?
Are you alleging Jesus had a nuclear machine with him? If not, it is impossible.
Are you alleging that thermodynamics and cellular decay can be reverse by any force or intelligence? If so, you are wrong, or need to suggest a mechanism by which even a creature of unlimited power can do so, otherwise, impossible.

So what would be proof if not what we know?
Are you seriously claiming what we don't know is proof?
You should read what riku has to say...

Yes, we don't have carpentry from the most fictitious man ever told, so he is a fairy tale.
We have no record of Lazarus, when his life should be the most famous literature in history.

You seem to be shifting the burden of (dis)proving fairy tales to me, when you have nothing, and when I demonstrate it to you, you say that doesn't prove anything.

LET ME EXPLAIN WHAT DOESN'T PROVE ANYTHING:
Anything you have claimed.

1) These claims arent scientific claims, they are divine acts.
2) Why do you think that isnt proof to me of Jesus's fictitious historicity?

3... I believe in the testimony of the prophets and the witnesses... Do you think they are false? How do you make sense out of them?

[Tart]

Ok, heres my evdience of what makes a Christian..

This is how you can recognize the Spirit of God: Every spirit that acknowledges that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God,~John

"If you declare with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved."~Paul

This isn't evidence as to what it takes to be a Christian. Neither unreferenced quote even addresses the subject.

And i didnt see any evdience that you claim you had. You claimed

"I've known many Christians that don't accept the things you claim."~Tcg

Lets ignore the fact that its a complete contradiction of terms, were is the evidence you have of "Christian that dont accept..."?

Quakers.

Well im not really interested in debating this anymore with you, Christianity is outlined in scripture...

Scripture is interpreted in a near endless number of ways. Yours is simply one amongst many.

If you dont believe in the testimony of the witnesses, and how they outlined the beliefs of Christians, then your as much as a 'christian'...

What makes you think I claim to be a Christian?

as Hitler was (maybe an extreme comparison, but the point is that both contradict what a Christian is).

Hitler was at one time a Christian. He remained a theist his whole life. He very well may have remained a Christian his whole life as well.

5 does not equal 6... Period...

Another absurd analogy that has nothing to do with the topic or anything I have said.

Here is what Hitler believed
Positive Christianity (German: Positives Christentum) was a movement within Nazi Germany which mixed ideas of racial purity and Nazi ideology with elements of Christianity. Hitler used the term in Article 24[1] of the 1920 Nazi Party Platform, stating: "the Party represents the standpoint of Positive Christianity". Non-denominational, the term could be variously interpreted. Positive Christianity allayed fears among Germany's Christian majority as expressed through their hostility towards the established churches of large sections of the Nazi movement.[2] In 1937, Hans Kerrl, the Nazi Minister for Church Affairs, explained that "Positive Christianity" was not "dependent upon the Apostle's Creed", nor was it dependent on "faith in Christ as the son of God", upon which Christianity relied

This is anti Christianity claiming the title of Christianity.

[Tcg]

Ok, heres my evdience of what makes a Christian..

This is how you can recognize the Spirit of God: Every spirit that acknowledges that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God,~John

"If you declare with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved."~Paul

This isn't evidence as to what it takes to be a Christian. Neither unreferenced quote even addresses the subject.

And i didnt see any evdience that you claim you had. You claimed

"I've known many Christians that don't accept the things you claim."~Tcg

Lets ignore the fact that its a complete contradiction of terms, were is the evidence you have of "Christian that dont accept..."?

Quakers.

Well im not really interested in debating this anymore with you, Christianity is outlined in scripture...

Scripture is interpreted in a near endless number of ways. Yours is simply one amongst many.

If you dont believe in the testimony of the witnesses, and how they outlined the beliefs of Christians, then your as much as a 'christian'...

What makes you think I claim to be a Christian?

as Hitler was (maybe an extreme comparison, but the point is that both contradict what a Christian is).

Hitler was at one time a Christian. He remained a theist his whole life. He very well may have remained a Christian his whole life as well.

5 does not equal 6... Period...

Another absurd analogy that has nothing to do with the topic or anything I have said.

Here is what Hitler believed
Positive Christianity (German: Positives Christentum) was a movement within Nazi Germany which mixed ideas of racial purity and Nazi ideology with elements of Christianity. Hitler used the term in Article 24[1] of the 1920 Nazi Party Platform, stating: "the Party represents the standpoint of Positive Christianity". Non-denominational, the term could be variously interpreted. Positive Christianity allayed fears among Germany's Christian majority as expressed through their hostility towards the established churches of large sections of the Nazi movement.[2] In 1937, Hans Kerrl, the Nazi Minister for Church Affairs, explained that "Positive Christianity" was not "dependent upon the Apostle's Creed", nor was it dependent on "faith in Christ as the son of God", upon which Christianity relied

This is anti Christianity claiming the title...

You've obviously never read Mein Kampf or read his speeches. Until you do, you can't claim to know his position on God and Christianity.