Have we anything to learn from the prophets?

[marco]

If it were possible to invite one of the old prophets into our house, have him deloused and given a long bath, what could he tell us, assuming conversation were possible? Perhaps we could surprise him by flicking on a light and announcing "Let there be light!"


I am often told to read my OT and learn from it. Perhaps I will be advised to beat children lest they get spoiled; kill witches and homosexuals; or on the positive side I might hope and trust in the Lord, live frugally and treat others well.

What do the prophets tell us we don't already know? Are they redundant?

[marco]

In any case, he forgot to tell us how to pronounce [The Divine Name].

How do you know this? Is this just you expressing a belief based on an assumption or can you prove this was the case?

Well we are wandering a little from the work of the prophets. It is possible that God told the boy who lives down the lane - but righty or wrongly I am taking it that the letters you present as supposedly being God's surname ( if names there be in Paradiso) are deficient in vowels and so are of dubious pronunciation. It seems reasonable to suppose we don't know how to pronounce the cryptic clue to God's signature. Perhaps you know when and where the sounds were divinely communicated else why question?

On the OP, I accept there's a small package of common sense: wrap up warmly in winter, repair things quickly, prepare for a rainy day but is there anything that a human being of average intelligence wouldn't deduce?

[JehovahsWitness]

In any case, he forgot to tell us how to pronounce [The Divine Name].

It is possible that God told the boy who lives down the lane ...

By your response I take it your comment that God "forgot to tell us how to pronounce it" was an assumption on your part.

If we are to accept the bible narrative, the name was revealed audibly long before it was recorded in written form, and it is, all things being equal, more than a mere possibility, but rather a logical probability that how that name be pronounced was communicated when it was.... pronounced.

• To illustrate, we more often than not ask how a name is spelt when we are presented with a pronunciation or a name that is foreign or unfamiliar to us, but if it is in conversation we rarely ask how it is pronounced (since we've just HEARD it pronounced by the initiator). If God , as the bible indicates, did indeed speak to his prophets , then there would logically have originally been no confusion as to the pronunciation of the Divine Name He himself was revealing.

If by "God "forgot to tell us..." , the "us" is refering to humanity as a whole after subsequent events, I don't know how you would go about attempting to prove this was due to a memory laps but you are welcome to try, although as you say this might take the discussion a little away from the original topic.

It seems reasonable to suppose we don't know how to pronounce the cryptic clue to God's signature.

Which is not the point you made, nor the point I challenged; you did not purpose that we don't know you proposed that God forgot to tell us. (Emphasis MINE)

In any case, he forgot to tell us how to pronounce [The Divine Name].

JW

[marco]

If we are to accept the bible narrative, the name was revealed audibly long before it was recorded in written form, and it is, all things being equal, more than a mere possibility, but rather a logical probability that how that name be pronounced was communicated when it was.... pronounced. .

Do we have an image of some tall being speaking in a human language to Moses? Does poor God not have the abiity to communicate without the imperfection of words, developed by imperfect humans? O well, we can make up what we want I suppose since nobody's about to contradict the tale. Moses did not communicate orally to people of the present century. The code God dropped involves some letters and as far as we know God hasn't issued a footnote. Some folk might guess that the sound is Jahwhah others Yechowa but we can but guess. Does it matter much?

[Elijah John]

[Replying to post 18 by marco]

Yes, scientsts can and have invented such things as penicillin. All well and good. But they do not teach anyone how to be better people, or how to relate to the Diety. It all comes down to that, doesn't it. Are you, like many skeptics taking the position that if one's teaching are not material and practical, then one's insights and teachings have no value in any sphere of human endeavor?

You will admit, won't you, that King David and the Prophets devised some beautiful poetry anyway? Even if you see little value in their theoogy, or in their guidance.

Millions find great inspiration in their writings, enriching their prayer life and helping them to become better people. Also increasing their faith (in many cases) and embracing their guidance in order to shape their lives.

THAT has value. To the believer, if not the skeptic. And there's, perhaps, the impasse.

[JehovahsWitness]

If we are to accept the bible narrative, the name was revealed audibly long before it was recorded in written form, and it is, all things being equal, more than a mere possibility, but rather a logical probability that how that name be pronounced was communicated when it was.... pronounced. .

O well, we can make up what we want I suppose ...

Except I perhaps wrongly presumed by your referencing the "Old Testament " in your question, you were expecting the same source to be referenced in the response. You asked about the content of the OT and I answered accordingly. I did not make up the fact that the bible Canon contains accounts of Prophts hearing voices communicating information.

If you were requesting input unrelated to the source document feel free to clarify.

EXODUS 3:4-5; 15 - NWT
God called to him out of the thornbush and said: “Moses! Moses!� to which he said: “Here I am.� 5 Then he said: “Do not come any nearer. Remove your sandals from your feet, because the place where you are standing is holy ground.� [...] 15 Then God said once more to Moses:

“This is what you are to say to the Israelites, ‘Jehovah the God of your forefathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, has sent me to you.’ This is my name forever, and this is how I am to be remembered from generation to generation.

AS it stands from the text it seems reasonable to conclude, taking the passage as an example, that God did not "forget" to communicatenhow his name was to be pronounced.

Below is you claim and my subsequnt challenge:

In any case, he forgot to tell us how to pronounce [The Divine Name].

How do you know this? Is this just you expressing a belief based on an assumption or can you prove this was the case?

JW

Respect,

JW

[marco]

Are you, like many skeptics taking the position that if one's teaching are not material and practical, then one's insights and teachings have no value in any sphere of human endeavor?
You will admit, won't you, that King David and the Prophets devised some beautiful poetry anyway

Not at all. I can extract morality from many sources. I wonder what the moral lesson is in this extract from David:

“Set Uriah in the forefront of the hottest battle, and retreat from him, that he may be struck down and die.� Uriah the Hittite was of course the husband of the woman after whom David lusted.


If we read the pagan reflections of Marcus Aurelius we will see he advises moderation, a virtuous life and makes beautiful judgments on our brief life and the indestructibility of matter. Or take Confucius, alive 500 years before Jesus: "“Everything has beauty, but not everyone sees it.�
I do not regard his statements as less than anything Christ said.


Perhaps we have deified Christ in order, in some way, to deify ourselves.

[liamconnor]

If it were possible to invite one of the old prophets into our house, have him deloused and given a long bath, what could he tell us, assuming conversation were possible? Perhaps we could surprise him by flicking on a light and announcing "Let there be light!"


I am often told to read my OT and learn from it. Perhaps I will be advised to beat children lest they get spoiled; kill witches and homosexuals; or on the positive side I might hope and trust in the Lord, live frugally and treat others well.

What do the prophets tell us we don't already know? Are they redundant?

Unfortunately, a little education in the classics ( that is, just enough to get recognized on internet sites) does not qualify one for reading all ancient texts.

If one actually read the prophets they would see they were interested in the immediate history of Israel. They were interested in warning Israel about the Exile; first from Assyria, then from Babylon.

It is only those who have never read them (I suggest you read them) but have gotten all they supposedly know of them from the internet and really bad books, that assume they were all about predicting distant futures.

This OP is very good for exposing a widespread ignorance about the prophets.

[Divine Insight]

[Replying to post 11 by Divine Insight]

Can you prove that the God YHWH was reavaled as such by name prior to that done by means of the Prophets of the Hebrews patriarchy?

Why would a monotheistic God need a name?

He certainly couldn't be confused with anyone else. So no name would be required.

People don't even think about these things apparently.

The mere fact that this God is said to have a name is already a dead giveaway that it's a man-made fictional character.

[JehovahsWitness]

Why would a monotheistic God need a name?

The God of the bible "needs" nothing and nobody, so it wouldn't be accurate to say he needs a name. That said, it is evident from scripture God has chosen to have a name, so it is reasonable to ask: Why is this the case?

WHO ARE YOU?

• When we first meet someone their name is one of the first pieces of information we get about them. A name identifies that person as a distinct individual and allows us to subsequently associate what further we learn about their situation, actions and personality with that one distinct person. It is the same with the Creator, His name serves to identify who he is and associate his actions and personality with him alone. For example, when Moses first encountered YHWH at the burning bush, he asked how he (Moses) should respond to the question "What is his (this god's) name?" We can read God's answer to Moses at Exodus chapter 3 verse 15
  

  Then God said once more to Moses: “This is what you are to say to the Israelites, ‘Jehovah the God of your forefathers ... has sent me to you.’ This is my name forever, and this is how I am to be remembered from generation to generation - NWT

But if there is only one God* wouldn't a name be redundant?

• There isn't only one god, there are many gods* whether real (that exist) or imaginary. Indeed the bible mentions the names of many of these gods , gods such as Molech, Dagon, Zeus and Hermes. There is however what scriptures call the One True God, meaning one Almighty, Creator, so his name serves to distinguish that True God, in the minds of those who know it, from all these other gods (whether human, spirit, real (existant) or imaginary. Biblically it isn't enough to simply identify the "false" gods as such and worship the nameless god that is left, because as mentioned above, the name is the central vehicle with which all other accomplishments and attributes associated.

* Biblically a god is a generic term that refers to anything or anyone that exercises a measure of power and/or influence over an individual.

"They will have that I am Jehovah (YHWH)" - Ezekiel 38:23

• The bible again and again contains God's affirmation of his position and attributes by name. Indeed the Divine Name (YHWH) occurs more than all other names in the bible combined!¤ The God of the bible clearly places much import on his name, expressing his intent that he be recognized as Jehovah (YHWH). This is more than a request that people recognize that he(God) has a name, it is a divine mandate that the person of God as represented by his name, be cleared of the reproach heaped upon him in the minds of opponents and that all living beings submit to his supremacy as the Creator and Supreme ruler of the universe.
  
  While the Jewish religion has long chosen to refrained from mentioning the divine name, the Catholic church has banned any mention of the Divine name during its official prayers and services and many bible translators have removed the name (YHWH) from their English bibles, sincere persons are invited to "sanctifiy" "praise" "make mention" and "preach" that name. Despite the concerted efforts to eliminate its from use (or at the very least minimalize its import in the minds of people), Jehovah's Witnesses continue by means of their worship and preaching to highlight the existence of the name and the God it represents.

¤ over 6,000 times

CONCLUSION Gods name serves to distinguish the one True God from the countless other god that exist in the minds of people. It is the central vehicle by which YHWH communicates His qualities and accomplishments. It is impossible to have a real relationship and worship the True God without knowing and recognizing the import and significance of His name and it is for these reasons and more that God has kindly revealed it to mankind through his Prophets of old.

The above represents my beliefs as one of Jehovah's Witnesses



RELATED POSTS

Why did God choose to reveal His name?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 791#904791

What reasons do translators give for removing God's name from the bible?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 886#867886

How many times does the Tetragrammaton appear in the Torah?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 097#903097

To learn more please go to other posts related to ....

GOD, THE DIVINE NAME and ...THE DIVINE PERSONALITY

[JehovahsWitness]

Continuation from POST #29 above ...


NAME

• What is God's name? (Tigger)
  http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 78#p882478

MEANING

• What does YHWH mean? Does it translate as "Father"?
  http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 22#p866322
  
  Is LORD (Hebrew "adonay") a translation of YHWH?
  http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 72#p915172

IMPORT

• Why would a monotheistic God need a name?
  http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 57#p932257
  
  How important is the Divine Name to true believers?
  http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 28#p915428
  
  How important was the Divine Name to early Hebrews?
  http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 28#p830128
  
  Can Jehovah's Witnesses be considered "monotheists"?
  http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 64#p867664

MANY NAMES?

• Does God have many names (Tigger)?
  http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 28#p870828
  
  Do the numerious variations on how the Tetragrammaton can be rendered represent numerous different names?
  http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 22#p907022
  
  Can YHWH be accurately be refered to as "The hidden Name of God"?
  http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 49#p902349

REMOVAL

• Have some bible translators removed the Divine Name from their bibles?
  http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 48#p867848
  
  How many times do the leading English translation mention the Divine Name?
  http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 75#p915775
  
  Why do many English Translations have LORD in Captials in many verses?
  http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 21#p872821

NEW TESTAMENT

• Does the Divine Name appear in the Christian bible (The "New Testament")?
  http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 63#p822563
  
  Did early copies of the Septuguint include the Divine Name or was it replaced by "Kurios"?
  http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 14#p872814
  
  Is there any evidence that the Divine Name (YHWH) appeared
  in the original "New Testament" manuscripts?
  http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 66#p822566
  
  Are there any academics that support the theory that the Divines namewas removed from the New Testament?
  http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 72#p822272
  
  Did the Hebrew bible that Jesus (and first century writers) use, contain the Name of God?
  http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 85#p822585
  
  Does God's name appear in any bibles in the CGS ("New Testament") ?
  http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 60#p858460

PRONUNCIATION

Has the original pronunciation of the Divine Name been lost?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 79#p915179

Should the Divine Name be treated differently from other biblical names?
viewtopic.php?p=1091152#p1091152

Should the Masoretic vowel choice be rejected?
viewtopic.php?p=1091154#p1091154

Does the letter /j/ belong in the Divine name?
viewtopic.php?p=1029301#p1029301

Do theophoric names present clues as to how the Divine Name was originally pronounced?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 66#p872166

Is there an academic consensus on the correct pronunciation of the Divine Name (YHWH)? (3-syllable)
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 88#p822688

OPPOSITION

• Has the Catholic Church really banned any mention of God's personal name from their services?
  http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 29#p828429
  
  What are the reasons for the seeming antagonism towards the Divine Name?
  http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 15#p866215

To learn more please go to other posts related to ....

GOD, "BAD" GOD and ...THE DIVINE PERSONALITY