Did Jesus really turn water into wine

[WPG12]

I do think he did, but it isn't something I would argue over, because I wasn't there I read it in a book. But, I also believe it shows something more, I think Jesus, by turning water into wine at the beginning of his ministry was showing what he would do through his ministry, in pouring water into those vessels, then putting that Spirit in it. I think it's also pretty significant that it happened at a wedding, where a woman takes the name of her husband, much like Christian's call themselves by his name, though most do it to no avail.

[marco]

So your opinion is that the story happened but Jesus used a trick or do you think the story was fabricated?

At a distance of 2 millennia I have no idea if the story happened. If all the wine was consumed, presumably the original narrators were drunk and maybe incapable to discernment. If it comes down to accepting a miracle or writing the story off as a drunken fabrication, there is no contest. The playwright Aeschylus had a tortoise supposedly dropped on his head by an eagle, killing him. Servius Tullius as a boy had flames appear round his head, marking him out as king. Poor Galileo is said to have whispered : e pur si muove (it moves, nonetheless) when told to believe that the Earth doesn't move round the sun as he affirmed heretically. How do we tell nowadays what is true?


When we doubt small parts of Scripture we walk down a dark road but that is maybe better than walking in artificial light. Taking the tale figuratively makes sense of what Christ preached.

[FWI]

[Replying to post 1 by WPG12]

Did Jesus really turn water into wine?

No, he did not…

The idea that the Christ would condone and contribute to drunkenness is incorrect and not biblical. Actually, the bible tells us that the "drunkard" will not enter into the Kingdom of God (Galatians 5:21). In John 2:10, we are told that the guests were already in a "drunkard state" and that additional fermented drink would just make the situation worst. However, the wisdom of the Christ is apparent, he changed the water into a high quality (unfermented) fruit juice. Which, was hailed as the best drink offered, during the wedding reception.

The Greek word "oinos" (G3631) which, has been translated as wine, is a generic term that could mean: fermented or unfermented. This can be illustrated in Matthew 9:17. The Christ is telling us that you shouldn't put "new wine" or oinos (G3631) into old wineskins, because the skins could break. This is surely telling us that the wine in this example is unfermented.

So, there are very few (biblical) examples, where wine or strong drink is used in a positive way. Even, the Romans showed the dangers of the regular usage of fermented drink. They would dilute wine with about 3-4 parts of water. Yet, today's societies have ignored the dangers and have used wine and strong drink in an unprecedented way and the consequences are clearly apparent.

[marco]

The idea that the Christ would condone and contribute to drunkenness is incorrect and not biblical. Actually, the bible tells us that the "drunkard" will not enter into the Kingdom of God (Galatians 5:21).

You are criticising excess, be it in eating or in drinking. There is no prohibition about drinking wine as such. It is wrong to change Scripture to conform to something we would like it to say. Your mention of the Greek word "oinos" does not back up what you argue. Wine is wine. And the Romans may economically have added water to their wine, but the would not spoil Falernian wine in this way.

[FWI]

[Replying to marco]

You are criticising excess, be it in eating or in drinking. There is no prohibition about drinking wine as such.

I really can't believe that you wrote this…

Yet, to show that the concept you present is wrong, review the following:

And, be not drunk with wine, wherein is excess; but be filled with the Spirit. (Eph. 5:18)

For the time past of our life may suffice us to have wrought the will of the Gentiles, when we walked in lasciviousness, lusts, excess of wine, revellings, banqueting, and abominable idolatries. Wherein, they think it strange that ye run not with them to the same excess of riot, speaking evil of you. Who shall give account to him that is ready to judge the quick and the dead? (1 Peter 4:3-5)

Wine is a mocker, strong drink is raging and whoever is deceived thereby is not wise. (Proverbs 20:1)

Be not among winebibbers (excess of wine); among riotous eaters (excess of meat) of flesh. For the drunkard (excess of wine) and the glutton (excess of food) shall come to poverty and drowsiness shall clothe with rags. (Proverbs 23:20-21)

Woe unto them that rise up early in the morning that they may follow strong drink; that continue until night (excess), till wine inflame them! (Isa. 5:11)

And take heed to yourselves, lest at any time your hearts be overcharged with surfeiting (overindulgence in food and drink), and drunkenness (excess of wine), and cares of this life, and so that day come upon you unaware. (Luke 21:34)

Since, there are other examples, it seems that your critiquing must have a deeper meaning.

[marco]

[Replying to marco]

You are criticising excess, be it in eating or in drinking. There is no prohibition about drinking wine as such.

I really can't believe that you wrote this…

Since, there are other examples, it seems that your critiquing must have a deeper meaning.

You've misunderstood. I said that you were condemning - correctly but irrelevantly - taking things to excess. We know that moderation is the best measure. When I said "there's no prohibution about taking wine as such" I meant that wine in itself is not condemned. The excess of drinking is.


You have then produced examples that condemn excess, in this case, taking wine in excess. We all know that such things as glottony or over-imbibing are condemned. I repeat that your previous post, while condemning wine, produced examples of drinking to excess, which is another matter. So your argument is not against wine, but against drinking to excess.

My "critiquing" does indeed have another meaning.

[FWI]

[Replying to post 15 by marco]

No, I didn't misunderstand your statements. I can't read your mind, so I can only respond to what you wrote. If, you are producing unclear statements, that's on you, not me.

Anyways, where do I claim that wine is prohibited in the bible?

However, the reality of certain substances, which affect the body negatively is no secret and can become addictive. Fermented drinks fall into this category. This is a fact and not an opinion…So, because there are trillions of dollars spent on fermented drinks yearly worldwide, there are countless people who struggle with alcohol abuse or alcohol addiction. Again, this a fact…

Therefore, because of the many examples of sins, which are related to fermented drinks in the bible and other sources, there surely can be a case made for prohibiting the usage of them. But, this wouldn't go well with most of humanity. Humans surely want their vices.

My "critiquing" does indeed have another meaning.

It is my opinion that individuals who "hide" their objective in forums (like this one) can't be taken seriously.

[marco]

No, I didn't misunderstand your statements. I can't read your mind, so I can only respond to what you wrote. If, you are producing unclear statements, that's on you, not me.

There is no requirement on you to read my mind. I repeat: you took the wrong meaning from what I said and if you wish to attribute your mistake to my inability to communicate properly, so be it, if that helps. Remain assured, the meaning you extracted from my statement is not the one I communicated; therefore, you misunderstood.


My point which you have ignored, preferring to dwell on a meaning that was never mine, is that in your post you are attacking EXCESS which I agree the Bible would condemn. You are then using this argument against excess to be an argument against drinking alcohol. You say:

"The idea that the Christ would condone and contribute to drunkenness is incorrect and not biblical."


This illustrates your preoccupation with excess. Nobody's disagreeing with that. Here you go again in the following oratory:


" However, the reality of certain substances, which affect the body negatively is no secret and can become addictive. Fermented drinks fall into this category. This is a fact and not an opinion…So, because there are trillions of dollars spent on fermented drinks yearly worldwide, there are countless people who struggle with alcohol abuse or alcohol addiction. Again, this a fact…"


You seem blissfully unaware that your argument is against excess. Sodium and chlorine are both poisons; we take salt, but we don't take it in excess.

It is my opinion that individuals who "hide" their objective in forums (like this one) can't be taken seriously.

I shall generously assume this is yet another misunderstanding.... of something or other. I have no hidden objective but I don't see that I need to support wrong arguments. There may be a good point to be made but you're not making it. We remain mystified as to whether Jesus changed water to wine.

[WPG12]

[Replying to post 16 by FWI]

Therefore, because of the many examples of sins, which are related to fermented drinks in the bible and other sources, there surely can be a case made for prohibiting the usage of them. But, this wouldn't go well with most of humanity. Humans surely want their vices.

So you would rather bring back prohibition?

[bluethread]

However, the reality of certain substances, which affect the body negatively is no secret and can become addictive. Fermented drinks fall into this category. This is a fact and not an opinion…So, because there are trillions of dollars spent on fermented drinks yearly worldwide, there are countless people who struggle with alcohol abuse or alcohol addiction. Again, this a fact…

As G. Gordon Liddy has pointed out, poison is in the dosage. Wine an strong drink in moderation, and occasionally in excess, does not, in general, have over all negative effects on one's health. Regarding addiction, nearly everything can be addictive and have negative effects on one's health. Again, it all depends on the individuals metabolism and the dosage.

Therefore, because of the many examples of sins, which are related to fermented drinks in the bible and other sources, there surely can be a case made for prohibiting the usage of them. But, this wouldn't go well with most of humanity. Humans surely want their vices.

The passages you presented earlier are advisory, not absolute. HaTorah tells us regarding the coming Feast Of Tabernacles, (Deut. 14:26) "And thou shalt bestow that money for whatsoever thy soul lusteth after, for oxen, or for sheep, or for wine, or for strong drink, or for whatsoever thy soul desireth: and thou shalt eat there before the LORD thy God, and thou shalt rejoice, thou, and thine household". (emphasis mine) The only prohibitions against drinking alcohol are in the Temple, by the Cohen HaGadol and by the the Nazarite. It is prohibited in the Temple, because what is done there is serious business. It is prohibited for the Cohen HaGadol, because he is never to leave the Temple. And, it is prohibited for the Nazarite, because he mirrors the Cohen HaGadol, outside the Temple.

[brianbbs67]

"Those that ate and drank, saw the Lord" Seems a theme throughout scripture that God and Christ like wine and food. Never do you hear of drunkeness. Responsibly enjoying life and or the fruit of it, seem ok with the Almighty.

IMG_1090 by brianbbs67, on Flickr