Is your belief in God, entirely dependent upon

[Elijah John]

Is your belief in God entirely dependent upon your belief that Jesus himself is God, the 2nd person of the Trinity?

If the arguments of skeptics here on these boards, or the arguments of Historical Jesus Scholars such as Bart Ehrmann or John Dominic Crossan, or even the arguments of Jehovah's Witnesses, Muslims or Jews suddenly clicked in your mind, with a light-bulb-"aha" realization that Jesus is not God, never claimed to be God, and none of his contemporaries every called him "God", what would you do?

Would you retain your general belief in God, as Father? Would you join another religion such as Islam or Judaism? Would you attempt to salvage what you can of Chrisitanity in a unitarian (small "u" not necessarily UU) fashion?

Or would that discovery cause you to become an atheist or an agnostic?

[JehovahsWitness]

[Christ is] the unifying principle of the universe (Col 1:17)

.

Colossians 1:17 Douay-Rheims (DRA)

And he is before all, and by him all things consist.

What does "he is the unifying principle of the universe " mean and how does the above scripture support the idea that Christ is equal to Almighty God and himself Almighty God?

[RightReason]

[Replying to JehovahsWitness]

whatever it was that "dwelt in Jesus" it was at the instiation and will of the Father that the "fullness" (whatever that is referring to) was in The Son. This hardly supports the idea of Jesus being a coequal, trinitarian god, since nothing can be added to an infinite being whose qualities are already in the absolute.

You mean you think it fails to support. But Christendom disagrees with you. As for your nothing can be added to a being whose qualities are already absolute is silly. Infinite goodness can exist in infinite goodness. There is no contradiction.

The King James Version and the Darby bible refer to the "godhead" dwelling in Christ, in Col 2:9.

Yep.

While Colossians 1:15 implies Jesus had a prehuman existence it makes no reference to his being "eternal" rather it refers to his origins. Almighty God had no origin since he had no beginning and cannot rightly be referred to as the "firstborn"

Christ was also fully human. A human being has an origin. But He was also fully God and Scripture shows this . . .

Jesus, in response to the Pharisees’ question “Who do you think you are?� said,

“‘Your father Abraham rejoiced at the thought of seeing my day; he saw it and was glad.’ ‘You are not yet fifty years old,’ the Jews said to him, ‘and you have seen Abraham!’ ‘I tell you the truth,’ Jesus answered, ‘before Abraham was born, I am!’ At this, they picked up stones to stone him, but Jesus hid himself, slipping away from the temple grounds� (John 8:56–59). The violent response of the Jews to Jesus’ “I AM� statement indicates they clearly understood what He was declaring—that He was the eternal God incarnate. Jesus was equating Himself with the "I AM" title God gave Himself in Exodus 3:14.


If Jesus had merely wanted to say He existed before Abraham’s time, He would have said, “Before Abraham, I was.� The Greek words translated “was,� in the case of Abraham, and “am,� in the case of Jesus, are quite different. The words chosen by the Spirit make it clear that Abraham was “brought into being,� but Jesus existed eternally (see John 1:1). There is no doubt that the Jews understood what He was saying because they took up stones to kill Him for making Himself equal with God (John 5:18). Such a statement, if not true, was blasphemy and the punishment prescribed by the Mosaic Law was death (Leviticus 24:11–14). But Jesus committed no blasphemy; He was and is God, the second Person of the Godhead, equal to the Father in every way.


Jesus used the same phrase “I AM� in seven declarations about Himself. In all seven, He combines I AM with tremendous metaphors which express His saving relationship toward the world. All appear in the book of John. They are I AM the Bread of Life (John 6:35, 41, 48, 51); I AM the Light of the World (John 8:12); I AM the Door of the Sheep (John 10:7, 9); I AM the Good Shepherd (John 10:11,14); I AM the Resurrection and the Life (John 11:25); I AM the Way, the Truth and the Life (John 14:6); and I AM the True Vine (John 15:1, 5).

https://www.gotquestions.org/I-AM.html

Again, it really couldn’t be clearer. I am not sure how you reconcile the above passages with your Jesus was just a human prophet of God.

What does "he is the unifying principle of the universe " mean and how does the above scripture support the idea that Christ is equal to Almighty God and himself Almighty God?

It means what it says . . . [Christ is] the unifying principle of the universe (Col 1:17) And he is before all, and by him all things consist.

I’m not sure what else you need to be told.

Sooooo . . . if you have nothing further – looks like were done here.
.

[JehovahsWitness]

COLOSSIANS 1:15

He is eternal (1:15).

Douay-Rheims Bible
Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature - COL 1:15

While Colossians 1:15 implies Jesus had a prehuman existence it makes no reference to his being "eternal" rather it refers to his origins.

Christ was also fully human. A human being has an origin.

So are you suggesting that Colossians 1:15 is referring, not to Jesus existence preceding all created things, but to his birth as a human? How did Jesus birth as a human precede "every creature"? Was not his mother a human creature before Jesus has a human?

[JehovahsWitness]

COLOSSIANS 1:16

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Douay-Rheims Bible
For in him were all things created in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones, or dominations, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him and in him. 

the Creator (Colossians 1:16).

Jesus is never revered to in scripture, this is a title that is uniquely associated with YHWH Almijghty God (Jehovah). Colossians 1:16 points to Jesus (in his prehuman existence) being a tool or and instrument through whom Almighty God created.


JW

[JehovahsWitness]

COLOSSIANS 1:17

Colossians 1:17 Douay-Rheims (DRA)

And he is before all, and by him all things consist.

And he is before all, and by him all things consist.

How does the above scripture support the idea that Christ is equal to Almighty God and himself Almighty God?


Verse 18
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 223#752223

[JehovahsWitness]

[Replying to post 23 by RightReason]

HEBREWS 1:3

HEBREWS 1:3
Who being the brightness of his glory, and the figure of his substance, and upholding all things by the word of his power, making purgation of sins, sitteth on the right hand of the majesty on high. - Douay-Rheims Bible

The Douay-Rheims translations refers to Jesus as being "the brightness of his [God's] glory". The word brightness usually refers to the light which is emitted or comes from a source.

For example the brightness of a candle refers to the light which the candle, or more precisely the flame from the candle, produces. If we understand Paul to be saying Jesus is "the brightness" then his existence as such is dependent on his Father the source. Indeed the Greek word translated here as brightness is "apaugasma" is from the preposition ἀπο (Strong's #575) "forth, from, away from", and αὐγὰζω (Strong's #826) "to shine, give light;", thus, literally "to shine forth or give light from an original source or instrument.". This is hardly a compelling argument for a truine god since this would require Jesus to be the originator of the light rather than a secondary result of its source. In short Jesus would have to be the candle/flame not simply the light (brightness) emitted by the flame.


QUESTION Could Paul not be saying that Jesus is the brightness of his own glory?

That would be inconsistent with the context of the verse. In verse 1 Paul speaks about God communicating with mankind by means of a son "whom he appointed" and "by whom also he made the world" (verse 2). So Paul is evidently speaking of the son being an agent of his Father. Logically then the context indicates the he (Jesus) is the brightness of "his" (God's) glory; note how this verse is rendered in a number of leading translations...

New International Version
The Son is the radiance of God's glory

New Living Translation
The Son radiates God's own glory

English Standard Version
He is the radiance of the glory of God

Berean Study Bible
The Son is the radiance of God’s glory

Christian Standard Bible
The Son is the radiance of God's glory

Contemporary English Version
God's Son has all the brightness of God's own glory

Holman Christian Standard Bible
The Son is the radiance of God's glory

International Standard Version
He is the reflection of God's glory

Aramaic Bible in Plain English
For he is The Brilliance of his glory

JESUS AS THE REFLECTION OF GOD

Further a closer look at the original Greek shows us that the word rendered in many English translations as "brightness" is apaugasma while this may refer to emitted light,

- Dr. Gottlieb Lunemann, H.A.W. Meyer's Critical and Exegetical Commentary on the New Testament, vol. 9 (Edinburgh: T&T Clark, 1883), pg. 396 explains it can refer to {quote} "reflected radiance, i.e. as a likeness formed by reflex rays."

and

- Joseph Henry Thayer, D.D., Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament (Edinburgh: T&T Clark, 1901), pg 55 suggests it refers to "a reflected brightness". Thus several translations (including the New World Translation) refer to Jesus as being a relflection of God's glory.

GOD'S WORD® Translation
His Son is the reflection of God's glory

Weymouth New Testament
He brightly reflects God's glory

Good News Translation
He reflects the brightness of God's glory

CONCLUSION Whether Paul's metaphor was likening Jesus to emitted light or reflected light, it is evident that his expression is refers to light and not the primary source upon which that light is dependent for its very existence. Thus there is no compelling reason to see this passage as supporting the idea that Jesus is himself Almighty God ( the light souce) or equal to that One.

RELATED POSTS

An image of God (2timothy316)
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 001#813001


FURTHER READING

Search for bible truths
http://examiningthetrinity.blogspot.com ... f-his.html

Study light
https://www.studylight.org/language-stu ... icle=32#F7

[RightReason]

[Replying to JehovahsWitness]

RightReason wrote:

Christ was also fully human. A human being has an origin.


So are you suggesting that Colossians 1:15 is referring, not to Jesus existence preceding all created things, but to his birth as a human? How did Jesus birth as a human precede "every creature"? Was not his mother a human creature before Jesus has a human?

I think it refers to the divine nature of Jesus just like I said.

Jesus is never revered to in scripture, this is a title that is uniquely associated with YHWH Almijghty God (Jehovah). Colossians 1:16 points to Jesus (in his prehuman existence) being a tool or and instrument through whom Almighty God created.

Open your Bible. Look at this description about God . . .

Psalm 102:25-27. The psalmist writes,
[25] Long ago you laid the foundations of the earth,
And the heavens are the work of your hands.
[26] They will perish, but you will remain;
Just like a garment they will all wear out.
Just like clothing you will replace them, and they will pass away.
[27] But you are the same, and your years will never end.


In this passage we are told that Jehovah created the heavens and the earth (Psa. 102:25). We are also told that Jehovah does not change; He is immutable (Psa. 102:26-27). Finally, we are told that Jehovah is eternal (102:27).


Now look at this passage about Jesus . . .


Hebrews 1:6-8

6 And again, when God brings his firstborn into the world, he says,
“Let all God’s angels worship him.�[a]
7 In speaking of the angels he says,
“He makes his angels spirits,
and his servants flames of fire.�
8 But about the Son he says,
“Your throne, O God, will last for ever and ever;
a scepter of justice will be the scepter of your kingdom.


[10] And: “At the beginning, O Lord, you laid the foundations of the earth, and the heavens are the works of your hands. [11] They will perish, but you will remain; and just like a garment, they will all wear out, [12] and you will wrap them up just as a cloak, as a garment, and they will be changed. But you are the same, and your years will never come to an end.�

Do you recognize these words? This is a quote from Psalm 102:25-27. The “you� in Psalm 102:25-27 is Jehovah! Yet, the author of Hebrews, under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, clearly attributes this same identification to the Son. The “you� in Hebrews 1:10-12 is Jesus! Therefore, Jesus is being identified as Jehovah. So is Psalm 102:25-27 about Jesus, or is it about Jehovah? The answer is, yes, because Jesus is Jehovah.

https://www.str.org/articles/an-argumen ... 6eB8ntKjAU

For example the brightness of a candle refers to the light which the candle, or more precisely the flame from the candle, produces. If we understand Paul to be saying Jesus is "the brightness" then his existence as such is dependent on his Father the source. Indeed the Greek word translated here as brightness is "apaugasma" is from the preposition ἀπο (Strong's #575) "forth, from, away from", and αὐγὰζω (Strong's #826) "to shine, give light;", thus, literally "to shine forth or give light from an original source or instrument.". This is hardly a compelling argument for a truine god since this would require Jesus to be the originator of the light rather than a secondary result of its source. In short Jesus would have to be the candle/flame not simply the light (brightness) emitted by the flame.

Scraping the bottom of the barrel with nonsense like this. Also, and what you keep ignoring is Jesus has both a human AND Divine nature. Jesus’ human nature obviously does come forth from God so mystery solved if you are desperately comparing brightness to candles.

Again, the first Christians taught and believed Jesus is God. But we are to believe Christendom got it wrong until Charles Taze Russell came along in the 19th century and set us all straight – LOL!

What we see time and time again in JW theology is how JW’s are forced to go to great lengths to prove or disprove one thing otherwise their entire theology falls apart. Since they falsely translated or in some cases changed/altered Sacred Scripture in one place, then they need to jump thru hoops somewhere else to maintain their problematic conclusion and it just becomes one huge tangled web they’ve woven. They turn to pages of Watchtower tracts to help them keep it all straight, but when one piece of their puzzle is shown not to fit, we’re left with a big mess.

I really encourage you to go back to the beginning. Study history. Trace the history of Christianity back to Christ Himself and start there.

[JehovahsWitness]

PHILIPIANS 3:21

Jesus is omnipotent (possesses all power): Philippians 3:20-21.

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PHILIPIANS 3:21 - NAB
He will change our lowly body to conform with his glorified body by the power that enables him also to bring all things into subjection to himself.

QUESTION Should we conclude from Philipians 3:20 that Jesus is "omnipotent".

No. Philipians outlines an extraordinary example of the extent of Jesus power but it would be premature to conclude from this scripture that Jesus power is absolute and without limit or that Jesus is or has ever been omnipotent in nature. Indeed Jesus himself contradicted this notion when he explained that his power had been given to him by The Father. Note Jesus own words recorded at Matthew 28 verse 18...

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Matthew 28:18  - NABRE
Then Jesus approached and said to them, “All power in heaven and on earth has been given to me.

If Jesus had absolute and infinite power he would have no need to be given more.


OBJECTION #1: Could Matthew 28:18 not be refering to his receiving power after having temporarily relinquish it to become a human on earth?

• While Jesus no doubt did relinquish power and position by decending to live as a lowly human, when the Father gave Jesus "all power" after that one's resurrection (whether that was returning relinquished power or not) He obviously was not giving Jesus absolutely all power that existed as this would render the Father powerless. Reaonably then, no matter how extensive Jesus power and authority or when his present powerful position began, the limit of that power is reached when it comes to the giver.
  

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  1 CORINTHIANS 15:27 NABRE
  
   But when it says that everything has been subjected, it is clear that it excludes the one who subjected everything to him.

  
  Further, if Jesus was returning to His original state as Almighty God, he would not be "given" any power as this would simply be an intrinsic part of what he was.
  

  To illustrate: If ice could be transformed into fire, it would not then be "given" heat. Heat would simply be part of its nature.

  If Jesus is Almighty God (or returned to the state of being Almighty God*), he would not need to be "given" Almightiness.

* if (as many Trinitarian claim) Jesus remained "fully god" he would logically have retained his divine omnipotent nature whether he chose to employ said omnipotence or not ; if he laid aside his power while on earth he obviously was not fully god during this period

CONCLUSION Philippians 3:20-21 indicates the post resurrected Jesus has a tremendous amount of power but it cannot be used to support the notion that that power is absolute as neither the word nor the notion is present in the scripture. Such a claim is based on an assumption that contradicts other biblical passages that infer a natural limit to Jesus extensive power and Authority.

JW




RELATED POSTS

How could Jesus be given authority he already had?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 355#829355

Is Jesus omniscient?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 466#866466

FURTHER READING: Catholic Bible online
http://www.usccb.org/bible/books-of-the-bible/index.cfm

[RightReason]

[Replying to post 38 by JehovahsWitness]

Code:
Matthew 28:18 - NABRE
Then Jesus approached and said to them, “All power in heaven and on earth has been given to me.



If Jesus had absolute and infinite power he would have no need to be given more.

<sigh> He is instructing us He has all power. Too funny you feel the need to usurp that and put limitations on it.

As to the rest of your Watchtower “defense� it’s based on the opinion of who? Watchtower tracts aren’t the word of God. They were written by human beings. Where did the authority of those who write the Watchtower pamphlets get their authority? You are aware that Charles Taze Russell sat down in a room with 4 other guys and took the Bible that was handed to them by my Church and decided to re interpret it? I’d like to know where they rec’d the authority to do so. I’d like to know how they knew if they were getting something right? I’d like to know by whose authority did they choose to add words to the Bible?

You continue to scrape together nonsense arguments – perhaps hoping if you string enough of them together they might appear to mean something. The truth is Christianity has taught and believed in the Divinity of Jesus Christ from the beginning. To say things like brightness can’t mean Light starts to get silly. Again, please continue to look into why Christianity believes and teaches what it does. Take your nose out of Watchtower clippings for a few moments and go to the source. You might not find colorful propaganda drawings, but you will find Truth.

[marco]

Ha, ha, ha . . . right back at ya . . . an adjustment of a line here, a hint there – and Jesus is not God. Easy, peasy, lemon squeezie.

Since I have just returned with a pocketful of piety after transporting mother to church - yep, the one, holy, Catholic and apostolic one - I feel unable to assault the Christ who has so recently assaulted me with his pleas, else I might utter the words of the spiritually defeated Emperor Julian: "Vicisti, Galilaee - you've won, O Galilean."

I sincerely think Jesus never saw himself as God. As a matter of fact in today's reading from Mark 9 : 37 we have "and anyone who welcomes me (Jesus) welcomes NOT me but the one who sent me." In other words he is God's representative, as is the Holy Father and the Pope is not God.

Jesus asked me to tell RightReason that he's flattered, but he's not God. God sent him - he didn't send himself. Warm wishes.


"