Challenge, prove that Jesus is "God"

Elijah John · Post by **Elijah John** » Sat Sep 29, 2018 8:39 am

I have a challenge for Trinitarians. Prove that Jesus Christ is God from Scripture. But here's the rub, do so without using any references from the Gospel of John, or any of the Epistles or the Book of Revelation.

Can you do it?

JehovahsWitness · Post by **JehovahsWitness** » Sat Oct 06, 2018 11:43 am

1CORINTHIANS 11:2

dakoski wrote:
"But I want you to know that the head of every man is the Christ; in turn, the head of a woman is the man; in turn, the head of the Christ is God." (1 Corinthians 11:2)

What, in your opinion does it mean to be someone's "head" ie "the head of the family"?

JW

dakoski · Post by **dakoski** » Sat Oct 06, 2018 11:49 am

[Replying to JehovahsWitness]

What, in your opinion does it mean to be someone's "head" ie "the head of the family"?

I'd also be interested in your view. I believe this passage in Scripture is a helpful definition: Ephesians 5:21-33

21 Submit to one another out of reverence for Christ.

22 Wives, submit yourselves to your own husbands as you do to the Lord. 23 For the husband is the head of the wife as Christ is the head of the church, his body, of which he is the Savior. 24 Now as the church submits to Christ, so also wives should submit to their husbands in everything.

25 Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her 26 to make her holy, cleansing her by the washing with water through the word, 27 and to present her to himself as a radiant church, without stain or wrinkle or any other blemish, but holy and blameless. 28 In this same way, husbands ought to love their wives as their own bodies. He who loves his wife loves himself. 29 After all, no one ever hated their own body, but they feed and care for their body, just as Christ does the churchâ€” 30 for we are members of his body. 31 â€œFor this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and the two will become one flesh.â€� 32 This is a profound mysteryâ€”but I am talking about Christ and the church. 33 However, each one of you also must love his wife as he loves himself, and the wife must respect her husband.

dakoski · Post by **dakoski** » Sat Oct 06, 2018 11:51 am

[Replying to post 51 by JehovahsWitness]

I'm happy to answer your question, but its polite to first answer the question posed to you before asking questions of your own.

dakoski · Post by **dakoski** » Sat Oct 06, 2018 1:27 pm

dakoski wrote: [Replying to post 51 by JehovahsWitness]

I'm happy to answer your question, but its polite to first answer the question posed to you before asking questions of your own.

Hi JW

For clarification my questions were:

1)Do you acknowledge that the passages (John 5:19; Matthew 28:18-20) you quoted reflect that:

a) there is no limit to Christ's power - since whatever the Father does the Son does also according to John 5:19.

b) there is no limit to Christ's authority - since all authority in heaven and earth belongs to him (Matthew 28:18-20).

If not, what do you think these passages are teaching?

2)Do you agree that 1 Corinthians 11:3 is teaching about the diversity in roles but yet unity in nature for both humanity (male and female) and God (Father and Son). If not, what do you think the passage is teaching?

As above, I've very happy to discuss how to interpret the word 'head'. But first it would be helpful to hear your responses to these questions.

Cheers

polonius · Post by **polonius** » Sat Oct 06, 2018 3:07 pm

dakoski wrote:
dakoski wrote: [Replying to post 51 by JehovahsWitness]

I'm happy to answer your question, but its polite to first answer the question posed to you before asking questions of your own.
Hi JW

For clarification my questions were:

1)Do you acknowledge that the passages (John 5:19; Matthew 28:18-20) you quoted reflect that:

a) there is no limit to Christ's power - since whatever the Father does the Son does also according to John 5:19.

b) there is no limit to Christ's authority - since all authority in heaven and earth belongs to him (Matthew 28:18-20).

If not, what do you think these passages are teaching?

2)Do you agree that 1 Corinthians 11:3 is teaching about the diversity in roles but yet unity in nature for both humanity (male and female) and God (Father and Son). If not, what do you think the passage is teaching?

As above, I've very happy to discuss how to interpret the word 'head'. But first it would be helpful to hear your responses to these questions.

Cheers

RESPONSE: "You heard that I said to you, â€˜I go away, and I will come to you.â€™ If you loved Me, you would have rejoiced, because I go to the Father; for the Father is greater than I.'" (John 14:28).

Jesus said the Father was greater than He not because Jesus is not God but because Jesus was also a man; and as a man, he was in a lower position. He was ". . . made for a little while lower than the angels . . ." (Heb. 2:9). Also in Phil. 2:5-8, it says that Jesus "emptied Himself, taking the form of a bond-servant, and being made in the likeness of men . . ."

SO MUCH FOR THE "CO- EQUALITY" OF THE TRINITY!

If God the Father didn't do these things the Son and the Father are not really co-equal.

polonius · Post by **polonius** » Sat Oct 06, 2018 3:11 pm

polonius wrote:
dakoski wrote:
dakoski wrote: [Replying to post 51 by JehovahsWitness]

I'm happy to answer your question, but its polite to first answer the question posed to you before asking questions of your own.
Hi JW

For clarification my questions were:

1)Do you acknowledge that the passages (John 5:19; Matthew 28:18-20) you quoted reflect that:

a) there is no limit to Christ's power - since whatever the Father does the Son does also according to John 5:19.

b) there is no limit to Christ's authority - since all authority in heaven and earth belongs to him (Matthew 28:18-20).

If not, what do you think these passages are teaching?

2)Do you agree that 1 Corinthians 11:3 is teaching about the diversity in roles but yet unity in nature for both humanity (male and female) and God (Father and Son). If not, what do you think the passage is teaching?

As above, I've very happy to discuss how to interpret the word 'head'. But first it would be helpful to hear your responses to these questions.

Cheers
RESPONSE: "You heard that I said to you, â€˜I go away, and I will come to you.â€™ If you loved Me, you would have rejoiced, because I go to the Father; for the Father is greater than I.'" (John 14:28).

Jesus said the Father was greater than He not because Jesus is not God but because Jesus was also a man; and as a man, he was in a lower position. He was ". . . made for a little while lower than the angels . . ." (Heb. 2:9). Also in Phil. 2:5-8, it says that Jesus "emptied Himself, taking the form of a bond-servant, and being made in the likeness of men . . ."

SO MUCH FOR THE "CO- EQUALITY" OF THE TRINITY!

If God the Father didn't do these things then Son and the Father are not really co-equal.

Jesus has an actual experience that the Father is lacking!

Post by **The Tanager** » Sat Oct 06, 2018 4:09 pm

JehovahsWitness wrote:So can you tell me the exact scripture I did not response to in that thread, for example, you could say : "JW you didn't respond to the point made in John 8:58 ( that's just an example of what I'm looking for) ..."

This thread is set up to look at a much more narrow case, many of those verses are from John and various Epistles, so I think it would be better to do it there, should you want to. Here I am focusing on defending a particular interpretation of Mark 2. I will gladly post in that thread what I didn't see you respond to.

JehovahsWitness wrote:So, would it be fair to say (correct me if I'm wrong) that ....

I think you might be mistakenly interchanging some words around. I've been comparing Jesus and the disciples on when they received the authority to forgive sins, not on when they received the Holy Spirit. I don't think Jesus received the Holy Spirit, even from eternity. Mark does not have Jesus speaking by the Holy Spirit, like Jesus says of David in Mark 12:36 or the disciples in Mark 13:11. I believe Jesus has an intimate relationship with the Holy Spirit, but it's not the same kind of relationship His disciples have with the Holy Spirit.

God is the power behind every forgiveness of sin. Jesus is God, according to John 1:1. That is why Jesus can forgive sins in Mark 2. Jesus claimed the authority to forgive sins in Mark 2 without mentioning anything about having the Holy Spirit.

Point #1: Only God has the power to forgive sins, according to the Tanakh. Did you have any thoughts on Micah 7:18 or any instances of someone other than God forgiving sins in the Tanakh?

Point #2: Jesus has the power, of Himself (i.e., not by having the Holy Spirit), to forgive sins according to Mark 2, so He must be God.

Point #3: Jesus' disciples have the authority to forgive sins, not of their own power but directly through having the presence and power of the Holy Spirit in them (given by Jesus). The Holy Spirit is the one with the power in this passage, and He has that power of Himself, to forgive sins, so He must be God.

JehovahsWitness · Post by **JehovahsWitness** » Sat Oct 06, 2018 4:40 pm

JOHN 5: 19

QUESTION Does John 5: 19 prove Jesus must be God ?

Jesus gave them this answer: â€œVery truly I tell you, the Son can do nothing by himself; he can do only what he sees his Father doing, because whatever the Father does the Son also does. - John 5: 19 (NIV)

The passages cumulates with the statement "whatever the Father does the Son also does" is this because they are both Almighty God or is one copying the other? Let us look at the explanations that lead up to this statement.

The Son can do nothing by himself: Certain trinitarians claim Jesus must be Almighty God because Jesus said he can do "nothing by himself". But if Jesus (the Son) were Almighty, all powerful (omnipotent) then there would be no limit to what he could do. By admitting the Son cannot act independently he is therefore admitting the Son cannot be the omnipotent God for whom no such limits can exist.

he can do only what he sees his Father doing Jesus expresses further limits admitting, he can only do "what he sees his Father doing" so here Jesus is not speaking of the Father and son acting in unison, but rather one acting/doing and one seeing (watching) the action. Evidently then the Father can do things without the son actively participating but the son can only do that which he has seen.

Since we have the son unable to act independently and unable to act unless he sees his Father do something but the Father able to do something while the son sees him doing it , they cannot both be equal. The Father can do that which the son cannot.

"whatever the Father does the Son also does" Given the above it is reasonable to conclude that the unity of action here expressed is NOT they are both Almighty God and equal but because Jesus is God's best student that sees and imitates his superior, always actings as he has been taught.

JW

INDEX So called trinity "proof texts" debunked
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 594#936594

JOHN 5:19 ".... what the Father does the son does"
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 787#936787

FURTHER READING

Full scripture index
http://examiningthetrinity.blogspot.com ... index.html

Trinity "proof" texts debunked
http://onlytruegod.org/defense/trinity_prooftexts.htm

JehovahsWitness · Post by **JehovahsWitness** » Sat Oct 06, 2018 5:13 pm

The Tanager wrote:Point #2: Jesus has the power, of Himself (i.e., not by having the Holy Spirit), to forgive sins according to Mark 2, so He must be God.

The meaning of the scripture in mark is the point under contention, it is circular to point to your conclusion as argumentation for your conclusion.

The Tanager wrote:Point #2: Jesus has the power, of Himself (i.e., not by having the Holy Spirit), to forgive sins [strike]according to Mark 2,[/strike] so He must be God.

Strike MINE

DOUAY-RHEIMS

But that you may know that the Son of man hath power on earth to forgive sins ... Mark 2:10

The Tanager wrote:Jesus is God, according to John 1:1. That is why Jesus can forgive sins in Mark 2.

Okay well you could have spared us both a lot of time if you had simply said this to begin with. I dont agree that John 1:1 proves Jesus is God. Did you have another scripture in mind to to support your point that "Jesus has the power, of Himself to forgive sins" and was not given that power or is that it?

JW

dakoski · Post by **dakoski** » Sat Oct 06, 2018 6:14 pm

[Replying to post 55 by polonius]

RESPONSE: "You heard that I said to you, â€˜I go away, and I will come to you.â€™ If you loved Me, you would have rejoiced, because I go to the Father; for the Father is greater than I.'" (John 14:28).

Jesus said the Father was greater than He not because Jesus is not God but because Jesus was also a man; and as a man, he was in a lower position. He was ". . . made for a little while lower than the angels . . ." (Heb. 2:9). Also in Phil. 2:5-8, it says that Jesus "emptied Himself, taking the form of a bond-servant, and being made in the likeness of men . . ."

SO MUCH FOR THE "CO- EQUALITY" OF THE TRINITY!

If God the Father didn't do these things then Son and the Father are not really co-equal.

Jesus has an actual experience that the Father is lacking! Wink

John's Gospel has many verses that speak of the equality of nature of the Father and the Son and also many verses that delineate distinctions in their role. What often happens in these debates is that one side will focus only on those verses where John emphasizes co-equality of nature whilst others will focus only on the verses that distinguish their roles.

I think you're making a similar argument as JW, that if the role of the Father and the Son are not exactly the same they cannot be equal. I think we have to take both sets of verses seriously in an understanding of what John is teaching about Jesus. I.e. that John teaches they are co-equal in nature however have different roles.