For which Jehovah should we witness?

[dakoski]

Jesus claimed to be the sent one from Jehovah (i.e. the angel of Jehovah as angel means ‘sent one’) e.g. Matt 10:40, 15:24, 21:37; Mark 9:37, 12:6; Luke 4:18, 4:43, 9:48, 10:16.; John 3:34, 4:34, 5:23, 5:24, 5:30, 5:36, 5:37, 5;38, 6:38, 6:44, 6:57, 7:16 etc. He also claimed to be the unique revelation of Jehovah: ‘No one knows the Father but the Son and those to whom he chooses to reveal him.’ (Matt 11:27)

The angel of Jehovah is a central figure throughout the Hebrew Scriptures (e.g. Genesis chapters 16, 18-19, 21, 24, 28, 31, 48; Exodus 3, 23, 24, 28, 31, 32, 33-34; Numbers 22; Judges 2, 5, 6, 13 etc.). He is the unique revelation of Jehovah, both referred to as Jehovah but also distinguished from Jehovah in the heavens who no one may see and live. There are a vast number of references where the angel of Jehovah is addressed as Jehovah so there’s only space for a few key examples but we can work through as many as you wish:

1) Gen 18-19.
18:1 makes clear Jehovah appears to Abraham. 19:1 clarifies that of the three people who visit Abraham two of these were angels who are then sent to Sodom. The person left with Abraham continues to be addressed as Jehovah (e.g. 18:20, 22, 26) by Abraham and the narrator. Then the angel of Jehovah leaves Abraham (18:33) and goes to Sodom to destroy the city: "By the time Lot reached Zoar, the sun had risen over the land. Then the Lord rained down burning sulfur on Sodom and Gomorrah—from the Lord out of the heavens." (Gen 19:23-24)

Of course the word translated Lord here is Jehovah. Even more interesting is that the person who speaks with Abraham and who goes down to Sodom is addressed as Jehovah and is distinguished from another person in the heavens also addressed as Jehovah. This is found in the JW’s NWT as well as all other translations

2) Exodus 33. This passage similarly distinguishes between a person addressed as Jehovah who spoke regularly with Moses face to face (v11) and another person also addressed as Jehovah who no one may see face to face and live (v20). Again this is found in the JW’s NWT as well as all other translations.

Questions for debate:
1) Do you think Jesus was claiming to be the angel of Jehovah mentioned in the Old Testament?

2) Do you agree that the angel of Jehovah was referred to as Jehovah, yet distinguished from Jehovah in the heavens? If not, what do you think these passages are teaching?

3) What is the significance of the angel of Jehovah being addressed as Jehovah:

a) Does it just reflect that the angel of Jehovah as ambassador was speaking on behalf of Jehovah but was not actually Jehovah? If this was common practice, wouldn’t we expect to see many examples of other ambassadors of Jehovah being referred to as Jehovah? Was any other angel, prophet, or messenger referred to as Jehovah?

b) Does it reflect that Jehovah is not a single person God? But rather that Jehovah in the heavens has always sent another person, who equally bears the divine name Jehovah, as a mediator with humanity?

[JehovahsWitness]

Duplicate. Sorry

[dakoski]

[Replying to JehovahsWitness]

When you say "called Jehovah" do you mean ....

- Given/designated that name as ones personal name by which the individual will forever identify himself as literally being Almighty God?


Or

- "accept to be addressed as"?

What I'm saying is that Jehovah in the heavens, the angel of Jehovah, [are] addressed in Scripture as Jehovah.

So? So what?! What do you think this means?

Its pretty clear to me, you seem to be the one struggling with it.

[JehovahsWitness]

[Replying to post 62 by dakoski]

Yes I don't know what you think because I am not a mind reader. As I said earlier ... If you conclude it means that the angel of Jehovah is

a) a created being (ie that at one point in time didn't even exist)
b) not equal to Almighty God the creator,
c) his own designated name and wouldn't dream of claiming ownership of the Divine name YHWH
d) that refuses worship that is due uniquely to the person of YHWH the one and only Creator and Almighty God

Then fine we agree. More than that... not so much. My reasons are as follows

• #1 Possession: Obviously the angel of Jehovah is not JEHOVAH because ... "of" means ownership or possession ( see Zech 1:11) . For example "the husband of Sarah", would be "the husband that belongs to Sarah" ie the husband that she has. The expression itself indicates Sarah is a different individual to "the husband". Thus "the angel OF Jehovah" is distinct person, separate and different from the individual ALMIGHTY GOD (JEHOVAH) to which he " belongs".
  • - Sarah is not her husband, her husband is not Sarah.
    - Almighty God is not his "angel", his angel is not Almighty God".
  #2 Angel: Jehovah is never refered to as an angel. indeed the bible implies Jehovah CREATED the angels since he created " all things" ( compare Job 38:7; Rev 4:11) so since the angel of Jehovah is... an angel, and Jehovah created all the angels then the angel of Jehovah by definition of being "an angel" is a created being. Since Jehoavh isn't a created being they cannot both lierally be JEHOVAH nor can the angel be Almighty God (who is by definition uncreated)
  
  #3 messenger: An angel is a messenger (see Heb 1:14). Angel of Jehovah means the messenger of Jehovah. The designation "Angel of Jehovah" itself thus denotes two separate individuals one sent with a message ( the "sendee") , the other "the sender". (and presumed originator of said message). If an angel is a messenger, then the sender cannot be described as AN ANGEL. There is no passage in scripture that depicts Almighty God being "sent" by anybody, to do anything.
  
  #4. Created: The bible indicates Jehovah CREATED the angels (compare Hebb 1:7). If an individual is described as an angel it is being implied that one is a created being. Since an omnipotent (Almighty) God cannot by definitiin be a created being he must be an "angel" cannot literally be Almighty God.
  
  # 5 Authority. The act of sending someone (as opposed to a mutual agreement between equala as to who should go) is by definition an exercise of authority of one or more individuals over another separate and distinct individual. One does not send oneself, one decides (or two equals can agree on a given action) but the submission to being sent is an expression that one has more authority over another ( compare Psals 91:12). Thus we have evidence to conclude form the designation alone ("angel" ie messenger ie one sent with a message) that the the sender (Jehovah) and the sender (The angel) are not equal. If one God is made up of two person's then the two persons would have to be equal. Ergo the designation "angel of Jehovah" cannot refer to Almighty God.
  
  6 # Representation: Refering to someone as Jehovah doesn't necessarily mean they are Jehovah ( if someone called me the queen of England does that mean I am her?) . Although on occasions individuals addressed angels as "Jehovah" , there is no biblical reason to conclude they didn't do so as an expression of their respect as to who these angels represented rather than a belief there was more than one Almighty God

QUESTION Does "the angel of Jehovah" Belong to Jehovah?

Yours, O Jehovah, are the greatness and the mightiness and the beauty and the splendor and the majesty, for everything in the heavens and on the earth is yours" -1 Chronicles 29:11

“Look, to Jehovah your God belong the heavens, even the heavens of the heavens, and the earth with all that is in it� - Deuteronomy 10:13

[dakoski]

[Replying to post 62 by dakoski]

Yes I don't know what you think because I am not a mind reader. As I said earlier ... If you conclude it means that the angel of Jehovah is

a) a created being (ie that at one point in time didn't even exist)
b) not equal to Almighty God the creator,
c) his own designated name and wouldn't dream of claiming ownership of the Divine name YHWH
d) that refuses worship that is due uniquely to the person of YHWH the one and only Creator and Almighty God

Then fine we agree. More than that... not so much

That's not my quote so I'm unclear what you mean here. I've clarified where we agree and not agree above.

[JehovahsWitness]

The angel of Jehovah
a) belongs to Almighty God
b) is a messenger of Almighty God
c) is created being (ie that at one point in time didn't even exist)
d) not equal to Almighty God the Creator,
e) his own designated personal name and wouldn't dream of claiming ownership of the Divine name YHWH
f) that refuses worship that is due uniquely to the person of YHWH the one and only Creator and Almighty God

... I've clarified where we agree ....

Could you recap which of the points above (a) - (f), which are all my points, you agree on?

[dakoski]

[Replying to post 64 by dakoski]

Could you recap which points (a) , (b), (c) (d)?

The list is too abstract to me, I most probably disagree with all of them. My view is that if you can show something from Scripture I'll agree with if not then I won't. As far as I'm concerned none of your propositions a-d can be shown in the passages on the angel of Jehovah. So they are highly speculative and most probably incorrect. You're free to hold those beliefs and of course I respect your sincerity in holding them.

[JehovahsWitness]

[Replying to post 66 by dakoski]

See edit (a) through (f) now...

[dakoski]

[Replying to post 64 by dakoski]

Could you recap which points (a) , (b), (c) (d)?

The list is too abstract to me, I most probably disagree with all of them. My view is that if you can show something from Scripture I'll agree with if not then I won't. As far as I'm concerned none of your propositions a-d can be shown in the passages on the angel of Jehovah. So they are highly speculative and most probably incorrect. You're free to hold those beliefs and of course I respect your sincerity in holding them.

I also disagree with the points you've added since I've previously replied

[dakoski]

[Replying to post 62 by dakoski]

Yes I don't know what you think because I am not a mind reader. As I said earlier ... If you conclude it means that the angel of Jehovah is

a) a created being (ie that at one point in time didn't even exist)
b) not equal to Almighty God the creator,
c) his own designated name and wouldn't dream of claiming ownership of the Divine name YHWH
d) that refuses worship that is due uniquely to the person of YHWH the one and only Creator and Almighty God

Then fine we agree. More than that... not so much. My reasons are as follows

• #1 Possession: Obviously the angel of Jehovah is not JEHOVAH because ... "of" means ownership or possession ( see Zech 1:11) . For example "the husband of Sarah", would be "the husband that belongs to Sarah" ie the husband that she has. The expression itself indicates Sarah is a different individual to "the husband". Thus "the angel OF Jehovah" is distinct person, separate and different from the individual ALMIGHTY GOD (JEHOVAH) to which he " belongs".
  • - Sarah is not her husband, her husband is not Sarah.
    - Almighty God is not his "angel", his angel is not Almighty God".
  #2 Angel: Jehovah is never refered to as an angel. indeed the bible implies Jehovah CREATED the angels since he created " all things" ( compare Job 38:7; Rev 4:11) so since the angel of Jehovah is... an angel, and Jehovah created all the angels then the angel of Jehovah by definition of being "an angel" is a created being. Since Jehoavh isn't a created being they cannot both lierally be JEHOVAH nor can the angel be Almighty God (who is by definition uncreated)
  
  #3 messenger: An angel is a messenger (see Heb 1:14). Angel of Jehovah means the messenger of Jehovah. The designation "Angel of Jehovah" itself thus denotes two separate individuals one sent with a message ( the "sendee") , the other "the sender". (and presumed originator of said message). If an angel is a messenger, then the sender cannot be described as AN ANGEL. There is no passage in scripture that depicts Almighty God being "sent" by anybody, to do anything.
  
  #4. Created: The bible indicates Jehovah CREATED the angels (compare Hebb 1:7). If an individual is described as an angel it is being implied that one is a created being. Since an omnipotent (Almighty) God cannot by definitiin be a created being he must be an "angel" cannot literally be Almighty God.
  
  # 5 Authority. The act of sending someone (as opposed to a mutual agreement between equala as to who should go) is by definition an exercise of authority of one or more individuals over another separate and distinct individual. One does not send oneself, one decides (or two equals can agree on a given action) but the submission to being sent is an expression that one has more authority over another ( compare Psals 91:12). Thus we have evidence to conclude form the designation alone ("angel" ie messenger ie one sent with a message) that the the sender (Jehovah) and the sender (The angel) are not equal. If one God is made up of two person's then the two persons would have to be equal. Ergo the designation "angel of Jehovah" cannot refer to Almighty God.
  
  6 # Representation: Refering to someone as Jehovah doesn't necessarily mean they are Jehovah ( if someone called me the queen of England does that mean I am her?) . Although on occasions individuals addressed angels as "Jehovah" , there is no biblical reason to conclude they didn't do so as an expression of their respect as to who these angels represented rather than a belief there was more than one Almighty God

QUESTION Does "the angel of Jehovah" Belong to Jehovah?

Yours, O Jehovah, are the greatness and the mightiness and the beauty and the splendor and the majesty, for everything in the heavens and on the earth is yours" -1 Chronicles 29:11

“Look, to Jehovah your God belong the heavens, even the heavens of the heavens, and the earth with all that is in it� - Deuteronomy 10:13

I've responded to these questions above, so I'm not sure why you are reposting them.

[JehovahsWitness]

My view is that if you can show something from Scripture I'll agree ...

The angel of Jehovah
a) belongs to Almighty God

Yours, O Jehovah, are the greatness and the mightiness and the beauty and the splendor and the majesty, for everything in the heavens and on the earth is yours" -1 Chronicles 29:11

“Look, to Jehovah your God belong the heavens, even the heavens of the heavens, and the earth with all that is in it� - Deuteronomy 10:13

Since everything in the heavens belongs to Jehovah including the angels, anyone identified as an angel must by definition belong to Jehovah.