What type of design is this?

[OnceConvinced]

Presuming God is real and presuming demons and Satan is real...

Presuming God created them as angels and then the ones that rebelled became the demons, let by Satan himself. These fallen angels became so corrupt that they became completely evil, with no redeeming features at all.

So God created these beings and for whatever reason they became pure evil. Yet God, even if he didn't know for sure, had a good idea they would become that way. Yet he created them anyway, knowing they would be come corrupted and turn against him.

Or maybe he had no idea at all? Maybe their corruption was a complete surprise to him?

The thing is for them to become corrupt, they must have been designed in such a way that would allow them to become corrupt.

So....
What sort of design would this be?

Malevolent?
Incompetent?
Intelligent?

Please justify your answer.

[brunumb]

[Replying to post 66 by ttruscott]

No intelligent person would rebel against a proven GOD.

Why not? If God does not demonstrate that he is worthy of respect, let alone love, why should anyone accept him. Of course the omnipotent one has the advantage of hanging hell over your head, so who is going to willingly rebel?

But even though HE abhors (worse than hate) the wicked, HE still treats them the most lovingly HE can, sending the rain and the sun to shine upon them though they are outside of HIS loving kindness by their own free will choice.

Wicked is such a loosely defined thing in Christianity that it is hard to pin down exactly who God actually hates. But this God of LOVE still has a heart full of HATE and when he is done sending rain and sun on the hated, he LOVINGLY sends them to hell. It is also hard to fathom how rational, logical human beings can continue to make excuses for its inconsistencies. Is it simply to maintain some reason to believe it actually exists? This god-of-contradictions cannot possibly exist.

[Tcg]

No intelligent person would rebel against a proven GOD.

We'll have to wait and see. If anyone ever presents a proven GOD, we will have the chance to find out if your unsupported claim pans out or not.

[ttruscott]

The freewill defence is quite irrelevant in this scenario. If God created his angels with freewill, knowing full well they would go on and corrupt the entire world and try to destroy all human life, then that is a malevolent act. If he had no clue what would happen, then that is incompetence.

GOD can only know what GOD does know. How is it incompetence to be otherwise than what you are? Incompetence reflects an attitude ABOUT what HE knows, not what HE knows at all.

Pagan Greek wisdom literature claims GOD knows as all that can be known from eternity past to eternity future. The Church Fathers bought this drivel hook, line and sinker because of their idolatry of all things Greek. They totally refused to resolve the blasphemy this definition caused by the implication that HE therefore knew, before their creation, who would end in hell BUT CREATED THEM ANYWAY, causing all the suffering and evil in the universe. This definition about HIS omniscience is so very wrong...

Act 15:18 tells us that HE knows all HIS works from the foundation of the world. HIS works are considered to be that which HE created by HIS decrees of creation and since the foundation of the world DOES NOT IN ANY WAY extend to before our creation we can only wonder how that affects our decisions pre-earth.

It also implies that if HE did not create the results of our free will decisions as a 'work' then HE would not know our decisions until we made them real by our decision. You contend that He knew every choice we would make but I deny that that is possible based upon Acts 15:18...

[ttruscott]

Interesting rhetoric, but hardly a logical or reasonable allowance of evil. What fails if God removes Satan and his minions from the scene?

After all our decisions were made and everyone was either elect or non-elect by their free will decision and any elect who was going to side with Satan against the judgment as too harsh etc had finalized their choice and became sinful themselves,

then the physical universe was created and all sinners were flung to the earth to live in Sheol to be sown into the world in their due time, Matt 13:36-3, so the sinful good seed and the reprobate tares could live together for the edification of the sinful elect about the nature of evil, that is, to learn that the reprobate could never repent and would never stop preying upon each other and those who did repent.

These two groups of sinners live together so the good seed will become separate from the reprobate tares in their hearts and leave them to GOD's judgement which has been postponed so the good seed are not pulled up for their sins by the judgement: Matt 13:28...“The servants asked him, ‘Do you want us to go and pull them up?’ 29“ ‘No,’ he answered, ‘because while you are pulling the weeds, you may uproot the wheat with them. 30 LET THEM GROW TOGETHER until the harvest.

There is an efficacious effect upon the sinfulness of the elect ones so they are brought to redemption and to repentance better than if the demons lived on mars and the sinful elect lived here for instance.

[ttruscott]

No intelligent person would rebel against a proven GOD.

We'll have to wait and see. If anyone ever presents a proven GOD, we will have the chance to find out if your unsupported claim pans out or not.

The Bible does suggest that everyone in creation has seen the proof of GOD's divinity and power, Rom 1:20, when we saw the creation of the physical universe, and such is the power of sin over sinners that they repress that proof from their minds because they love sin more than the truth.

But for the angels who did not rebel with Satan, it is impossible to think that anything could persuade them to rebel from their holiness against HIS Divine power and goodness after they saw the poof by the creation, especially in the light of the suffering they have seen that such rebellion causes.

Satan's rebellion must obviously have been before the proof was offered.

[Tcg]

The Bible does suggest...

That doesn't even come close to presenting a proven GOD.

You stating this clearly reveals your faith in God and the Bible, but your faith proves nothing about either God or the Bible.

As I said previously, we'll have to wait and see. If anyone ever presents a proven GOD, we can revisit your unsupported claim and see if it pans out. I for one won't be holding my breath that we'll ever need to do that.

[brunumb]

[Replying to post 74 by ttruscott]

These two groups of sinners live together so the good seed will become separate from the reprobate tares in their hearts and leave them to GOD's judgement which has been postponed so the good seed are not pulled up for their sins by the judgement

Not necessary, unless God is an incompetent doofus.

Explain what would actually go wrong on the earth today if Satan and his minions were to vanish and humans were left to live without their influence.

[ttruscott]

The Bible does suggest...

That doesn't even come close to presenting a proven GOD.

Christians do not deal with a proven or proving GOD. We live by faith not sight.

[Tcg]

The Bible does suggest...

That doesn't even come close to presenting a proven GOD.

Christians do not deal with a proven or proving GOD. We live by faith not sight.

You are the one who made a claim concerning a proven GOD. I'm glad you have retracted that claim given that I showed you the obvious flaw in that claim.

I'm glad to see you also admit that you live by faith as I also pointed out to you.

It's encouraging to see you so quickly agree with the facts I have presented. Kudos for your honesty.

[Willum]

Seems like an intelligent design where the assumptions of foolish mortals are not anything like the intentions of the creator.

We should probably reverse engineer what is allegedly observed to glean the intent of this intelligence.