Book debate on Christians Are Revolting

[otseng]

It's been suggested to debate the book "Christians Are Revolting: An Infidel's Progress":

viewtopic.php?t=34841

We'll start the debate soon in the Book Debates subforum. And who knows, we might even be able to get the author of the book to participate also!

Reply below if you'd like to be added to the book debate group to participate.

[Elijah John]

[Replying to post 1 by otseng]

You can count me in.

[Divine Insight]

Sounds like an interesting book to debate. However, I'm not sure I have time to spend reading every chapter to debate it. I also don't feel like spending $15 to buy the book. Although I did notice that most (if not all) of the chapters can actually be read for free on Amazon by using the "Look Inside" feature. If you go to the Table of Contents you can just click on each chapter and it appears to bring up the full text.

I jumped around in the book a bit and tend to agree with the author on many points. I too see Christianity as a religion being far from what Jesus had supposedly taught.

However, I noticed in the Chapter "Thy Kingdom Come", I noticed that the author rejects many verses in various scriptures using Jeremiah 8:8 "The lying pen of the scribes" to dismiss various verses in scripture as being nothing more than lies written by men about things that God does not support.

It seems to me that this would ultimately be the crux of any debate concerning this book. How much of the Bible is trustworthy, and how much of it is nothing more than lies written by men?

Obviously the author of this book is going to just toss out the things he doesn't like as being lies and not from God, while only accepting verses and scriptures that he likes.

That's not going to go over very well with Fundamentalists who demand that every word of the Bible is the "Word of God".

And it seems to me that if we accept Jeremiah 8:8, then we have no choice but to view the Bible as a whole as being untrustworthy in detail. If we need to pick and choose what we think a God would be like versus what the scriptures actually say, then this boils down to us creating God in our image of moral values.

So it seems to me that the whole thing basically reduces to whether or not Jeremiah 8:8 is accepted or rejected.

It would also seem to me that Fundamentalists should have extreme problems with Jeremiah 8:8. If they want to claim that the Bible is the infallible Word of God, then they would need to accept Jeremiah 8:8 as being part of that infallible word, but Jeremiah 8:8 says that the scriptures are indeed fallible and contain lies.

So it seems to me that it all boils down to Jeremiah 8:8.

Is the Bible the infallible Word of God?

If so, then how in the world did Jeremiah 8:8 get into the Bible? According to Jeremiah 8:8 the scriptures cannot be trusted to be the Word of God.

So without reading the entire book it seems to me that I've already found the Achilles Heel of the whole shebang.

The Ultimate Fail:

If Jeremiah 8:8 is true, then the Bible contains lies.

If Jeremiah 8:8 is itself a lie, then the Bible contains at least one lie.

Either way the Bible contains lies.

So who's to say which parts of the Bible should be the basis for Christianity?

The only thing we can say with absolute certainty is that the Bible contains lies.

Do I really need to read the whole book when the problem appears to already be crystal clear? The Biblical canon is undependable and even questions the truth of its own content. It seems to me that this would be the crux of the debate here when all is said and done.

[tam]

Peace to you,

Obviously the author of this book is going to just toss out the things he doesn't like as being lies and not from God, while only accepting verses and scriptures that he likes.

I don't think you can know this (unless that is what the author said, himself). I do not know what the author's test or measure of truth is, but I have certainly shared that I test all things against Christ; hold all things up against the light that is Christ, the truth that is Christ.

I do not know if the author hears the voice of Christ, but even if not (yet), he might still be testing everything else that is written against what Christ taught (in word and deed). That does not completely remove the possibility for misunderstanding, but it would mean that his test for truth is not simply an arbitrary 'whatever I like'.


Just sayin'.

I have not read the book but now I am intrigued. I guess I'll join book debate group.



Peace to you,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy

[Divine Insight]

Peace to you,

Obviously the author of this book is going to just toss out the things he doesn't like as being lies and not from God, while only accepting verses and scriptures that he likes.

I don't think you can know this (unless that is what the author said, himself). I do not know what the author's test or measure of truth is, but I have certainly shared that I test all things against Christ; hold all things up against the light that is Christ, the truth that is Christ.

I do not know if the author hears the voice of Christ, but even if not (yet), he might still be testing everything else that is written against what Christ taught (in word and deed). That does not completely remove the possibility for misunderstanding, but it would mean that his test for truth is not simply an arbitrary 'whatever I like'.


Just sayin'.

I have not read the book but now I am intrigued. I guess I'll join book debate group.



Peace to you,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy

You're right, I haven't read the whole book, and so I really can't say what the author is concluding. However, without even buying the book, you too can read a lot of it on the Amazon site by just clicking on "Look Inside", and then reading most, if not all of the chapters.

You can also see what I saw in the Chapter entitled "Thy Kingdom Come", and specifically on page 237 where the Author appears to reject the idea that the God of the Bible is seeking a "sacrifice".

Yet, ironically much of Christendom is based on the idea that Jesus was the ultimate sacrificial lamb of God to end the need for any further sacrifices. The author appears to be arguing, at least to some degree, that salvation is no obtain through accepting Christ as our sacrificial lamb, but rather it is "earned" by becoming spiritually righteous on our own merit.

As you say I haven't read the entire book. Apparently this author appears to have embraced the general idea of salvation and obtaining eternal life through righteousness.

Precisely how the author view this, I can't say. Perhaps that too can be a topic of debate or discussion. I'd like to participate in this book debate, but I'm not sure if I have time to read everything in full.

Also Chapter 1 does appear to be missing from the Amazon "Look Inside" feature. I'm not sure I want to pay $15 just to have to read chapter 1.

[Divine Insight]

Just another comment that appears to be related to the subject matter of this book.

I'm not totally clear on this, but the author appears to be saying that orthodox Christianity basically has it all wrong, and the author of this book has an alternative view.

To begin with, isn't this pretty much the claim of many modern theists?

Also, another core issue is the issue of "salvation" and the promise of eternal life for the "righteous".

What appears to be the greatest division in Christendom is the disagreement between Christians on what is required to obtain this promise of eternal life.

Some claim that it needs to be "earned" by striving to become a righteous person. Other's claim that works are meaningless without having accept Christ as the "Savior". Still others, claim that it requires both acceptance of Christ as Savior and acknowledgement of his ultimate authority, plus the additional effort of trying to become righteous as well.

In the end, it seems to me that it boils down to a religion that is offering a Grand Prize of Eternal Life. But no one is clear on what is required to obtain this prize.

It also appears to me that almost everyone is focused on obtaining the prize rather than on being a righteous person for its own sake.

This is why I have always felt that a righteous atheist would be the epitome of what this God would actually want. A person who hungers and thirsts for righteousness when they don't even believe that they will be granted any Grand Prize of Eternal Life for having been righteous. They just want to be righteous for righteousness sake.

Seems to me they would be exhibiting the greatest motivation for righteousness without the need for any additional incentives.

The idea of a Grand Prize of Eternal Life seems like an unnecessary distraction if the purpose is to show that a person is truly interested in being righteous. Trying to be righteous in order to win the Grand Prize of Eternal Life would be superficial wouldn't it?

[Divine Insight]

And who knows, we might even be able to get the author of the book to participate also!

I didn't realize that ElCodeMonkey was the author of the book. I'll buy it. Sign me up for the book debate group.

I'll probably agree with most of his views.

[Divine Insight]

I do not know if the author hears the voice of Christ,

What are you calling "The voice of Christ"?

Are you claiming to actually hear the voice of some entity other than yourself?

Or are you just using this as a metaphor for your own conscience?

We can attribute our own conscience to anything. Including our innermost self.

I would hope that everyone has a conscience, but based on the behavior of some people perhaps that's a naive assumption on my part.

None the less, I don't attribute my conscience to any imaginary supernatural entities. There's simply no need to do that.

Everyone from every different religious faith would attribute their conscience to the deity associated with their faith. That's just not an impressive metaphor.

Calling your conscience "the voice of Christ" is probably not a good idea. This ends up creating an imaginary Christ modeled after your own conscience.

[ElCodeMonkey]

Probably goes without saying, but count me in as well .

[ElCodeMonkey]

FYI to everyone interested, I have managed to make the book free on Kindle for TODAY (Sunday Nov 4, 2018) only! So if you're interested in reading it digitally or sharing it with a friend, now is your chance! You can even read on a computer, so you don't need a special device to do so. Free Digital Kindle Copy of Christians Are Revolting: An Infidel's Progress