Giving Up Sin to be a Christian

[Jagella]

Many Christian apologists tend to get a bit frustrated with the skeptics. All of the apologists' arguments and evidence often just don't convince many atheists and other unbelievers. How can those arguments and evidences fail to convince? So often the only answer to this question rests on the belief that the skeptics must be unwilling to give up their sin to become Christians. So...

Question for Debate: What sin might any of you unbelievers need to give up to become Christians?

Personally, I suppose I would need to give up swearing, cursing, and looking at porn although I know it's common for Christians to indulge in these sins.

[Bust Nak]

I understand about insulting someone per forum rules. I do not unnecessarily and arbitrarily insult people...

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[07-07-07]

1 John 1
[8] If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us.
[9] If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness.
[10] If we claim we have not sinned, we make him out to be a liar and his word is not in us.

What is the point of confession if children of God don't sin?

You're not correctly understanding the Scriptures that you're citing. When the Scriptures are taken in totality, the message is clear: whoever continues in [willful] sin will perish. Secondly, confession is a man-made doctrine of the catholic church.

1 John 2
[3] And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.
[4] He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

[Divine Insight]

In order to have a fair debate about the Scriptures,we must be able to fully and freely cite what the Christian God says about these people.

What people? Who are you referring to as "these people"?

Anyone who doesn't believe like you or interpret ancient scriptures the same way you do? That would be about 99% of the rest of Christendom. It's extremely unlikely that you will find other Christians who are going to agree with your interpretations of these ancient religious writings. In fact, the Protestants protested against Catholicism a long time ago, and they haven't stopped protesting against each other to this very day.

And if you're a Catholic you need to leave the interpretation of scripture up to the Pope.

He'll tell you what you need to believe. You aren't in a position to be telling him what he needs to believe.

You're not correctly understanding the Scriptures that you're citing. When the Scriptures are taken in totality, the message is clear: whoever continues in [willful] sin will perish. Secondly, confession is a man-made doctrine of the catholic church.

If you reject the Catholic Church then you already reject "The Body of Christ".

1 John 2
[3] And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.
[4] He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

Who's commandments are we to keep?

If we are to keep the commandments of Yahweh (the original God of the Old Testament) we would need to join ISIS or the Taliban and start behaving like the ancient Hebrews behaved.

On the other hand if we are to obey the commandments of Jesus then that's quite easy to do. In fact, any moderately decent person would satisfy the commandments of Jesus naturally even if they don't believe in Jesus or Christianity.

Also, who are you to say that other people aren't in harmony with the teachings of Jesus? Look at Mahatma Gandhi, he famously said, "I like your Christ but I don't care much for your Christians".

People who call themselves Christians often behave in a manner that is quite un-Christ-like. Especially when they spew hatred and degradation toward others in the name of Jesus. That's got to be the greatest offense ever.

Did you read Luke 6:37 as I had suggested?

According to Jesus it is not important to believe in him or in his words (see John 12:47)

All that is required is that you qualify for Luke 6:37.

If you are unable to qualify for Luke 6:37 then you may indeed need to resort to more drastic measures. But you are gravely mistaken if you think that this applies to everyone. Many people naturally qualify for Luke 6:37 and have no need to do anything other than be who they are. They have earned their own salvation without any help from Jesus.

In fact, Jesus says that the righteous shall go the way of eternal life, not the repented (See Matthew 25:46)

Jesus has already guaranteed my destiny to eternal life. There is no need for me to believe in Jesus, or in Yahweh. Much less bow down to the hateful interpretations of scriptures by people who call themselves "Christians" but who fail to live by the words of Jesus.

[Jagella]

Sinners are the ones who sin, and sinners will wind up in hell fire.

Revelation 21:8 tells us that "all liars" will end up in the lake of fire. That would include both of us.

In any case, Christianity is a very violent religion. It's dangerous and best avoided.

[Bust Nak]

You're not correctly understanding the Scriptures that you're citing. When the Scriptures are taken in totality, the message is clear: whoever continues in [willful] sin will perish.

Well there you go - should I take that as you conceeding that Christians do infact sin, but not "willfully?"

Secondly, confession is a man-made doctrine of the catholic church.

But it says to confess our sins right there in 1 John 1:9. And repeated here:

[James 5:16] Therefore, confess your sins to one another and pray for one another, that you may be healed. The prayer of a righteous person has great power as it is working.

[07-07-07]

Well there you go - should I take that as you conceeding that Christians do infact sin, but not "willfully?"

Do you know the difference between willful sinners and the Saints of God who don't willfully sin?

But it says to confess our sins right there in 1 John 1:9. And repeated here:

[James 5:16] Therefore, confess your sins to one another and pray for one another, that you may be healed. The prayer of a righteous person has great power as it is working.

The KJV reads "faults", not "sins".

James 5
[16] Confess your faults one to another, and pray one for another, that ye may be healed. The effectual fervent prayer of a righteous man availeth much.

[07-07-07]

Revelation 21:8 tells us that "all liars" will end up in the lake of fire. That would include both of us.

In any case, Christianity is a very violent religion. It's dangerous and best avoided.

No, I won't be there with you. The Saints go marching into Heaven.

[Bust Nak]

Do you know the difference between willful sinners and the Saints of God who don't willfully sin?

Yes, one is said to be hell bound while the other is not. Do you know the difference between the Saints of God who don't willfully sin, and Saints of God who sin unwillfully?

The KJV reads "faults", not "sins".

James 5
[16] Confess your faults one to another, and pray one for another, that ye may be healed. The effectual fervent prayer of a righteous man availeth much.

Okay, but the KJV still calls for confession:
[James 5:16] If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
[Proverbs 28:13] He that covereth his sins shall not prosper, but whoso confesseth and forsaketh them shall have mercy.
[Psalm 32:5] I acknowledge my sin unto thee, and mine iniquity have I not hid. I said, I will confess my transgressions unto the Lord; and thou forgavest the iniquity of my sin.

[07-07-07]

I don't have time to respond, but one must confess their sins to the Lord to obtain forgiveness, not man. And, one must forsake their sins too.

[Jagella]

Revelation 21:8 tells us that "all liars" will end up in the lake of fire. That would include both of us.

No, I won't be there with you. The Saints go marching into Heaven.

Then you obviously don't consider yourself to be a liar. How so? Are you saying you never lied?

And just for the record, I've noticed that Christians lie about as often as non Christians do. So aside from very young children, it looks like almost everybody will end up in the lake of fire assuming the cruel and violent eschatology of Christianity is true.