Symbolism of the cross.

[Elijah John]

For those of us who reject the notion that Jesus died to "pay for" our sins, does the story of the crucifixion and resurrection have any value, symbolically?

Paul's interpretation was that Jesus death was a blood-atonement. But that's just it, his was an interpretation. No matter that the Church and millions of Christians take that interpretation as "Gospel" it is still an interpretation.

Even if Jesus didn't actually rise from the dead, it's a good story, isn't it. After all, here we have a disgraced, failed apocalyptic prophet executed at the hands of the mighty Roman empire. Yet, God vindicates Jesus, and makes him triumphant in his resurrection and ascension. "Christ" lives on in the hearts of millions as their Lord and Savior, even as the Roman empire has fallen.

As a Theistic skeptic, what I derive from this story is this. God favors the lowly of the world, and the world's values are not God's values. The cross is a symbol of ultimate triumph of the oppressed and downtrodden. That interpretation is in line with the teachings of Synoptic Jesus (Blessed are the meek, for they shall inherit the earth" etc) and even with some of the teachings of Paul. ("God chooses the weak to shame the strong" or words to that effect)

Also, I see Jesus death as a martyrdom. He died for his beliefs and for his devotion to God as he understood Him. And God vindicated that devotion by raising Jesus from the dead. (in one way, or another)

That is how I find meaning in the story of the crucifixion and the resurrection. How about you? Beyond blood-redemption, do you (even as a dissenter from orthodoxy or even as an atheist) find any value in the story of the crucifixion and resurrection? Whether or not it actually happened?

[StuartJ]

It's the classic Humpty Dumpty Syndrome.

When one has HDS ...

Things can mean just whatever one CHOOSES them to mean.

[Elijah John]

It's the classic Humpty Dumpty Syndrome.

When one has HDS ...

Things can mean just whatever one CHOOSES them to mean.

Elaborate, please. Or do you derive nothing of value from the story.

[Divine Insight]

After all, here we have a disgraced, failed apocalyptic prophet executed at the hands of the mighty Roman empire.

According to the Gospel rumors Jesus was not crucified by "the mighty Roman empire".

To the contrary, the Gospel rumors have Pontius Pliate exonerating Jesus of any wrong doing and repeating many times that he finds no fault in him. He also publicly washes his hands of the whole affair and tells that Jewish Chief Priests, "ye see to it".

So it's not the Gospel narrative that Jesus was executed by "the mighty Roman empire".

According to the Gospels Jesus was crucified by demand of the Jewish Chief Priests who had supposedly incited a mob of Jews to call for the crucifixion of Christ.

[Divine Insight]

For those of us who reject the notion that Jesus died to "pay for" our sins, does the story of the crucifixion and resurrection have any value, symbolically?

Paul's interpretation was that Jesus death was a blood-atonement. But that's just it, his was an interpretation. No matter that the Church and millions of Christians take that interpretation as "Gospel" it is still an interpretation.

I see a major problem with all of this.

Whether we think of Jesus as merely a prophet of God, or as God's Son, or even as God incarnate himself, there still shouldn't be any ambiguity in God's message in all of these cases.

The fact, that it's not clear and that no one can agree on what the meaning might have been only suggests that there is no omnipotent God behind Jesus in any case.

Therefore the stories of Jesus having anything to do with any God in any capacity (even as a mere prophet) must all necessarily be false.

[StuartJ]

It's the classic Humpty Dumpty Syndrome.

When one has HDS ...

Things can mean just whatever one CHOOSES them to mean.

Elaborate, please. Or do you derive nothing of value from the story.

HDS does not need elaboration in this case.

I suggest you have just played the classic "please explain" dodge.

[Elijah John]

It's the classic Humpty Dumpty Syndrome.

When one has HDS ...

Things can mean just whatever one CHOOSES them to mean.

Elaborate, please. Or do you derive nothing of value from the story.

HDS does not need elaboration in this case.

I suggest you have just played the classic "please explain" dodge.

"Dodging" what?? What the dickens are trying to say? RIght now, I can only conclude that you draw nothing of value from the story, so why participate in this thread if your intentions are not honorable?

If you have nothing of value to contribute, please refrain. You are being vague and disrespectful.

Displaying your contempt for a subject or a poster is not honorable debate.

And who are you suggesting has "HDS". I suggest that you think carefully before you answer....Or if you have nothing constructive to add, please consider excusing yourself from futher participation on this one.

[StuartJ]

It's the classic Humpty Dumpty Syndrome.

When one has HDS ...

Things can mean just whatever one CHOOSES them to mean.

Elaborate, please. Or do you derive nothing of value from the story.

HDS does not need elaboration in this case.

I suggest you have just played the classic "please explain" dodge.

"Dodging" what?? What the dickens are trying to say? RIght now, I can only conclude that you draw nothing of value from the story, so why participate in this thread if your intentions are not honorable?

If you have nothing of value to contribute, please refrain. You are being vague and disrespectful.

Displaying your contempt for a subject or a poster is not honorable debate.

And who are you suggesting has "HDS". I suggest that you think carefully before you answer....Or if you have nothing constructive to add, please consider excusing yourself from futher participation on this one.

And now we have the expected "I'm offended" dodge.

I will indeed excuse myself from further participation.

[ElCodeMonkey]

The only value I see in the Crucifixion is the honorable death of holding to one's beliefs even unto torment and death. Who knows if he had much of a choice, but he saw the hate and the danger ahead of time yet he continued to press on. Jesus was in fact a hero in that regard. He saw the corruption of doing what's right turned into religious dogma, he knew all the previous prophets were murdered before him, and yet still he tried to find a way to combat the pattern of religiosity, to persevere, and to ensure the proper message of goodness remained even unto his own demise.

[brunumb]

[Replying to post 1 by Elijah John]

As a Theistic skeptic, what I derive from this story is this. God favors the lowly of the world,...

It seems to me that God should not favour anyone. In fact, he should be ensuring that the world he created offers a level playing field for everyone.

.... and the world's values are not God's values.

Isn't it the intention of God that we adopt his values?

The cross is a symbol of ultimate triumph of the oppressed and downtrodden.

No. It is a symbol of the barbarism that some cultures stooped to in order to express and maintain their might.

That interpretation is in line with the teachings of Synoptic Jesus (Blessed are the meek, for they shall inherit the earth" etc)

The meek have always been suppressed and will never inherit the earth. It is only when the meek overcame it and rose up against tyranny that they ever achieved anything.

"God chooses the weak to shame the strong"

God should not play favourites. Besides, there is nothing wrong with being strong, so why should God shame them? We are often encouraged to be strong in the face of adversity. Is there some virtue in being weak?

Also, I see Jesus death as a martyrdom. He died for his beliefs and for his devotion to God as he understood Him. And God vindicated that devotion by raising Jesus from the dead. (in one way, or another)

Many ordinary humans have died for their beliefs, which may not have included an expectation of an afterlife of bliss. Why didn't God vindicate their devotion in a similar fashion?

That is how I find meaning in the story of the crucifixion and the resurrection. How about you?

Nope. Just another story in the myths and legends genre.