Brainwashed ...

[StuartJ]

Brainwashing (also known as mind control, menticide, coercive persuasion, thought control, thought reform, and re-education) is the concept that the human mind can be altered or controlled by certain psychological techniques.

Brainwashing is said to reduce its subject’s ability to think critically or independently,[1] to allow the introduction of new, unwanted thoughts and ideas into the subject’s mind,[2] as well as to change his or her attitudes, values, and beliefs.[3][4] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brainwashing

Is this an accurate description of religion ...?

[FWI]

[Replying to post 68 by JehovahsWitness]

It's a really good list.

Interesting…Which, of the listed "brainwashing techniques" do the Jehovah's Witnesses use?

[Tart]

I will certainly go to another thread to discuss if Jesus is a myth. The point of this discussion is about brainwashing, which has developed to a discussion about critical thinking... I am challenging the idea that atheism encourages critical thinking...

How are you challenging it? By your opinion only?

Id like you to prove you think critically about your beliefs, in this case "Jesus is a myth"... You really believe that, right? And you believe its becuase you think critically about the subject, right?

That's correct. How would I be able to prove it to you?

My belief that Jesus is a myth starts with these observations:

1) No contemporary secular evidence of his existence. There were plenty of historians around and if Jesus had a fraction of the following which is attributed to him, someone should have noticed and recorded it.

2) The first person who mentions him (Saul/Paul) barely knows a single personal detail about the alleged life of Jesus. Not one parable and no Jesus as a teacher at all. Jesus performed no miracles according to Paul. No virgin birth, no Sermon on the Mount, no feeding the 5000, no public ministry, no cleansing the temple, no final words, and no Great Commission. Paul doesn’t even place Jesus within history --- there’s nothing to connect Jesus with historical figures like Caesar Augustus, King Herod, or Pontius Pilate.

3) The stories about Jesus become ever more elaborate as time goes on. First we have gMark which is relatively concise (no birth narrative and no resurrection). Then gMatthew adds more detail. Then gLuke adds even more detail. This is classical myth-making where the story evolves and new details are tacked on as time passes.

4) Most of what passes as Jesus stories is lifted straight out of preexisting Jewish and pagan Greco-Roman literature and thought. The material is just reworked and attributed to Jesus. When all of that is stripped away, there is barely anything left that is original in any way.

And I could go on and on. Have I thought about this critically or not?

Yes, and i would suggest to you that this list you stated here is nothing more then conforming to what atheism tells people... This is what atheism wants people to believe, and you are buying into it...

How do you know you arent being "brainwashed" (quote on quote), to believe something that isnt true? (that is, Jesus is a myth)?

(and by the way, the things you listed arent really valid or true, id be happy to explain why if you wish... Here is a post of my take on a historical Jesus, post #13 viewtopic.php?t=34637&start=10 which id love to get your "critical" thoughts on... )

[Tart]

A great example of this kind of "Brainwashing" (which is reflected in your 4th point above) is the movie zeitgeist.

"4) Most of what passes as Jesus stories is lifted straight out of preexisting Jewish and pagan Greco-Roman literature and thought. The material is just reworked and attributed to Jesus. When all of that is stripped away, there is barely anything left that is original in any way."

This is exactly what zeitgeist said. But Zeitgeist told a bunch of lies (whcih we know are lies now), and tricked people to believe Jesus was created from these Pagan and Greco-Roman myths... This kind of thought is pretty much abandon today... And this movie is where it originated, in modern thought... But now, people will never use zeitgeist as a credible source for anything, but they still try to hold on to what it brainwashed people into believing.. And we see this, even now...

Its a good example of brainwashing...

[JehovahsWitness]

[Replying to post 68 by JehovahsWitness]

It's a really good list.

Interesting…Which, of the listed "brainwashing techniques" do the Jehovah's Witnesses use?

As far as I know, none. What about you, which ones do you use?

[Guy Threepwood]

Brainwashing (also known as mind control, menticide, coercive persuasion, thought control, thought reform, and re-education) is the concept that the human mind can be altered or controlled by certain psychological techniques.

Brainwashing is said to reduce its subject’s ability to think critically or independently,[1] to allow the introduction of new, unwanted thoughts and ideas into the subject’s mind,[2] as well as to change his or her attitudes, values, and beliefs.[3][4] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brainwashing

Is this an accurate description of religion ...?

Is it an accurate description of atheism?

It's a good point

critical thought- being able to change one's beliefs- depends first on being able to recognize one's own beliefs as such.

This can be especially difficult for an atheist (speaking as an ex-one) since a fundamental tenet of atheism is, by definition, to actively reject the notion of belief, and claim a 'non belief' or 'default truth'.

And so I was brought up as many atheists, being taught that atheism was the inherently 'intellectually superior' position, - the burden of proof lies with every other belief, hence no need to question one's own! .. not a whole lot of critical thinking going on there! This is/was taken to far greater extremes in atheists states like North Korea, USSR, communist China but the same principle applies.

Similar brain washing certainly can happen in religion also, where faith is rejected and/or politics gets involved - and that obviously causes problems also- but at least personal faith, belief, as a concept is underscored and cherished in many religions- not despised and rejected outright

[RedEye]

It's a really good list.

Is there a source?

Adapted from here:

http://www.phinnweb.org/neuro/brainwash/

[RedEye]

I will certainly go to another thread to discuss if Jesus is a myth. The point of this discussion is about brainwashing, which has developed to a discussion about critical thinking... I am challenging the idea that atheism encourages critical thinking...

How are you challenging it? By your opinion only?

Id like you to prove you think critically about your beliefs, in this case "Jesus is a myth"... You really believe that, right? And you believe its becuase you think critically about the subject, right?

That's correct. How would I be able to prove it to you?

My belief that Jesus is a myth starts with these observations:

1) No contemporary secular evidence of his existence. There were plenty of historians around and if Jesus had a fraction of the following which is attributed to him, someone should have noticed and recorded it.

2) The first person who mentions him (Saul/Paul) barely knows a single personal detail about the alleged life of Jesus. Not one parable and no Jesus as a teacher at all. Jesus performed no miracles according to Paul. No virgin birth, no Sermon on the Mount, no feeding the 5000, no public ministry, no cleansing the temple, no final words, and no Great Commission. Paul doesn’t even place Jesus within history --- there’s nothing to connect Jesus with historical figures like Caesar Augustus, King Herod, or Pontius Pilate.

3) The stories about Jesus become ever more elaborate as time goes on. First we have gMark which is relatively concise (no birth narrative and no resurrection). Then gMatthew adds more detail. Then gLuke adds even more detail. This is classical myth-making where the story evolves and new details are tacked on as time passes.

4) Most of what passes as Jesus stories is lifted straight out of preexisting Jewish and pagan Greco-Roman literature and thought. The material is just reworked and attributed to Jesus. When all of that is stripped away, there is barely anything left that is original in any way.

And I could go on and on. Have I thought about this critically or not?

Yes, and i would suggest to you that this list you stated here is nothing more then conforming to what atheism tells people... This is what atheism wants people to believe, and you are buying into it...

You asked if I had thought critically about the issue. The fact that I can summarize my position in my own words demonstrates that I have. Not only that but I can defend my position. That displays critical thinking capability. As I have already stated, mine is probably a minority view among atheists (although that percentage is growing over time). I'm not buying into anything. I have educated myself on the subject and I have formed a particular view which some other atheists share.

How do you know you arent being "brainwashed" (quote on quote), to believe something that isnt true? (that is, Jesus is a myth)?

I have asked this question before. Who has brainwashed me and what brainwashing techniques have they used? You can't call people voluntarily educating themselves brainwashing. No-one has forced anything on me or used psychological techniques on me either now or as a child (before I had developed the ability to think critically). Therefore you can't characterize me as brainwashed by any criteria.

(and by the way, the things you listed arent really valid or true, id be happy to explain why if you wish... Here is a post of my take on a historical Jesus, post #13 viewtopic.php?t=34637&start=10 which id love to get your "critical" thoughts on... )

I may take a look if it seems interesting. (Every observation that I made is demonstrably true).

[RedEye]

A great example of this kind of "Brainwashing" (which is reflected in your 4th point above) is the movie zeitgeist.

"4) Most of what passes as Jesus stories is lifted straight out of preexisting Jewish and pagan Greco-Roman literature and thought. The material is just reworked and attributed to Jesus. When all of that is stripped away, there is barely anything left that is original in any way."

This is exactly what zeitgeist said. But Zeitgeist told a bunch of lies (whcih we know are lies now), and tricked people to believe Jesus was created from these Pagan and Greco-Roman myths... This kind of thought is pretty much abandon today... And this movie is where it originated, in modern thought... But now, people will never use zeitgeist as a credible source for anything, but they still try to hold on to what it brainwashed people into believing.. And we see this, even now...

Its a good example of brainwashing...

I have never seen the movie so how could I have been brainwashed by it?

[StuartJ]

[Replying to post 75 by Guy Threepwood]

And so I was brought up as many atheists, being taught that atheism was the inherently 'intellectually superior' position,

Your parents certainly seem to have been correct:

https://www.livescience.com/59361-why-a ... igent.html

https://www.independent.co.uk/life-styl ... 83131.html

http://www.asanet.org/research-and-publ ... ntelligent

https://www.psychologytoday.com/au/blog ... higher-iqs

the burden of proof lies with every other belief, hence no need to question one's own!

Atheism is NOT a belief (system)

To claim that it is is a FALSE claim.

This has been pointed out NUMEROUS times

And still people trot it out.

This is/was taken to far greater extremes in atheists states like North Korea, USSR, communist China but the same principle applies.

I call this little gem the "Communist Switcheroo" ...

It takes the spotlight OFF the biblical fantasies ...

And shines it ON the Communist Bogeyman ...

And the quivering masses forget about noticing that there is not a shred of evidence for the existence of the biblical versions of "God" ...

And they huddle and nod and form prayer circles.

But the good folks in the regimes mentioned were replacing systems of obedient servility with other systems of obedient servility.

With as much faith and fervour as a Christian missionary in a heathen, land, they attempted to exterminate all organised opposition.

Atheism - a lack of belief in any version of "God" - does not do that.

[Guy Threepwood]

[Replying to post 79 by StuartJ]

I lack belief in purely materialistic/ naturalistic explanations for the universe and life.

So as an a-naturalist, all the burden of proof and critical thought is now shifted away from me. (semantically) and claiming I still have a belief is a FALSE CLAIM (semantically) my belief has vanished (semantically)

i.e. that works both ways just as well

Only a theist has no need to use this semantic device, they are willing and able to openly acknowledge their beliefs as such, which means they are free to apply critical thought to them, and stand behind them on their own merits

But the good folks in the regimes mentioned were replacing systems of obedient servility with other systems of obedient servility.

Yet as freedom of critical thought returns naturally to these places.. so naturally does faith in God. No political brute force required