Challenge, prove that Jesus is "God"

[Elijah John]

I have a challenge for Trinitarians. Prove that Jesus Christ is God from Scripture. But here's the rub, do so without using any references from the Gospel of John, or any of the Epistles or the Book of Revelation.

Can you do it?

[EBA]

Please support the first claim with evidence from the Old Testament. I don't recall Isaiah ever saying "Thus saith the LORD, through Christ".

Genesis 1
1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.

And if "Christ is Yahweh" what is the Father's name?

Yahweh.

What was Jesus talking about when he taught us to pray "hallowed be thy name"?

In short, that his Father's name is sanctified.

Now let me ask you a question:

Using the N.T., can you show me the proper name Jesus called his Father?

Peace.

[jgh7]

Rev 1:8 “I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End,� says the Lord, “who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty.�

Its quotes like these that make it hard for me to believe that Jesus is not God. Especially calling oneself the Almighty.

[JehovahsWitness]

Are you suggesting that because Paul was talking about the son he could not at any time mention the Father?

No, not at all.

Ok then what evidence can you present (apart from pointing out that the book of Hebrews is principally dealing with the role of Jesus in Christian worship), that Hebrews 1:10-12 specifically is a reference to Jesus (rather than a reference to YHWH, the Father that sent Jesus to the earth)? In short how do you know that this scripture wasn't Paul mentioning the Father?

HEBREWS 1:10-12
And: “At the beginning, O Lord, you laid the foundations of the earth, and the heavens are the works of your hands. 11 They will perish, but you will remain; and just like a garment, they will all wear out, 12 and you will wrap them up just as a cloak, as a garment, and they will be changed. But you are the same, and your years will never come to an end.�

PSALMS 102:25-27
Long ago you laid the foundations of the earth, And the heavens are the work of your hands. They will perish, but you will remain; Just like a garment they will all wear out. Just like clothing you will replace them, and they will pass away. But you are the same, and your years will never end.

JW

[shnarkle]

If Jesus were God, I'd expect him to say, "All power is mine in heaven and earth."

His statement that it was given to him implies that there is someone greater who gave it to him.

I can see how one may come to this conclusion, but it could just as easily be the other way around. For example, tribute, offerings, worship, etc. are all given to God, and none of those things indicate superiority. In fact, they all indicate power being given to the king, god, emporer, etc.

Who could that be if not God?

Who could it be when Christ himself states that he only does what he sees the father doing? What is he doing? He's serving others. So God is the servant of all, and yet it is Christ who is the humble servant who actually serves while God is simply the origin of Christ.

God is manifest in, with, and through Christ. There simply is no other game in town. There is no other option other than Christ.

[shnarkle]

Anytime God ever spoke in the Old Testament, it was through Christ, his first begotten.

Make no mistake about it, Christ is Yahweh, he is the “I am� and he is God.[/color]


Peace.

Please support the first claim with evidence from the Old Testament. I don't recall Isaiah ever saying "Thus saith the LORD, through Christ".

There is always a mediator. There are a number of examples where someone comes into contact with God, but the sentences lapse between JHVH speaking and "an angel of JHVH" speaking or doing something. They are not the same, but they are used interchangeably by the author. Why? Probably to show that ultimately, one cannot come in contact with JHVH without losing their life.

And if "Christ is Yahweh" what is the Father's name? What was Jesus talking about when he taught us to pray "hallowed be thy name"?

He was talking about the authority that comes with using it. Those that don't have authority use it in vain. One who comes 'in the name" of a king, emporer, country, etc. does so on the authority of those kings, or countries.

Given that JHVH means "I am", or "I will be what I will be", or "the eternal", it stands to reason that God cannot be limited to some identity. When an angel appears to someone, they say God's words, and have the same effect as if God said them himself. God cannot be confined to an ikon, nonetheless, there is only the ikon, and while the ikon can never be God, it is the only thing that can objectively be said to be God at all.

[EBA]

More proof that Jesus Christ is God.

So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them. (Gen 1:27)

Peace.

[Elijah John]

Probably to show that ultimately, one cannot come in contact with JHVH without losing their life.

IF that is true, isn't that evidence that Jesus is not YHVH? After all, many came in contact with him.....and lived.

Also, since we believers are temples of the Holy Spirit of YHVH, why aren't we all destroyed for it?

I reject the notion that YHVH is unapproachable except though mediation. That does not seem to be what Jesus taught, Jesus taught direct access, that YHVH was our approachable Father, bypassing the Temple and the Priesthood. (again the LORD's prayer and the Parables are evidence for this.) As did John, who performed "baptisms of repentance for the forgiveness of sins" outside of Temple jurisdiction. The notion that YHVH is unapproachable seems to be a scare tactic invented by Priests to bolster their power.

[EBA]

Also, since we believers are temples of the Holy Spirit of YHVH, why aren't we all destroyed for it?

We are. Destruction leads to salvation.

I reject the notion that YHVH is unapproachable except though mediation. That does not seem to be what Jesus taught, Jesus taught direct access, that YHVH was our approachable Father, bypassing the Temple and the Priesthood. (again the LORD's prayer and the Parables are evidence for this.)

I disagree with this; Christ taught the opposite. Christ is the Temple and the Priesthood.
Also, I’m curious as to which parable you think teaches this. Would you mind showing me and explaining the parable. Thank you in advance.

As did John, who performed "baptisms of repentance for the forgiveness of sins" outside of Temple jurisdiction. The notion that YHVH is unapproachable seems to be a scare tactic invented by Priests to bolster their power.

The father is not unapproachable, but you must go through Christ to do so; that is just scriptural fact.

Have you ever wondered why God had no respect for Cain’s offering?

Peace.

[brianbbs67]

[Replying to post 125 by EBA]

I believe EJ is coming from an OT perspective. In the Tanakh, there is more than one verse about making your body an exceptable place for the Lord to dwell. Which is what Christ was talking about to the crowd. It wasn't a new thing, it was an old one. Which was taught to all in Isreal.

[EBA]

[Replying to post 125 by EBA]

I believe EJ is coming from an OT perspective. In the Tanakh, there is more than one verse about making your body an exceptable place for the Lord to dwell. Which is what Christ was talking about to the crowd. It wasn't a new thing, it was an old one. Which was taught to all in Isreal.

Well, I’m sure Christ taught that, but I don’t believe it was “taught to all in Isreal� via the Tanakh. I would like to here more on this please.

Peace.