Are Gods physical?

[ytrewq]

In a previous thread I was astounded to hear the claim that Gods are not physical, presumably meaning they do not consist of physical matter. How any theist could actually claim to know that is a mystery, but never mind. The question being asked here is :-

Are Gods made from physical matter�, and if they are not, then what are they made from.

If they are able to think and do stuff, then presumably they must be made of something.

By “physical matter�, I mean the physical stuff within our Universe from which everything else is made from, which includes atoms, sub-atomic particles, and to be fair I suppose we must include dark matter as well.

But there are other classes of things that undeniably exist, that are not physical matter as such, that perhaps Gods could be made of. Here is a list of “stuff� that definitely exists, and thus Gods might potentially be made of :-

(a) Physical matter, including atoms, sub-atomic particles, and dark matter

(b) Electromagnetic radiation and other forms of radiation, energy and fields. For example, light and radio waves.

(c) Human (or animal) feelings, emotions, thoughts, love, hate jealousy, intelligence, stupidity, truth, dishonesty, spirituality and so on. All of these can be said to “exist�, but not in a physical form.

(d) Similar to (c), morals, legal or scientific laws, stories, information, principles, and so on. As with (c), all of these can be said to “exist�, but not in a physical form, although the media that encodes them may be physical, such as a book or CD.

OK. So what are Gods made from? Certainly not anything in the (c) or (d) category, which do not physically exist in their own right and are not capable of performing physical feats on their own. That is, it makes no sense to say that a God (or anything else) is made from love, or justice or logic or spirituality. These are attributes of something that physically exists.

I have heard it said that Gods are not physical, but spiritual. Spiritual is an adjective, an attribute of something that exists, so it makes no sense to say that a God is made of spirituality, any more than saying it is made of love. So sure, Gods probably are very spiritual things, but that says nothing of what they are made from, which is the topic of this thread.

So what is left? Within the realms of human knowledge, and I’m not interested in just making stuff up, then I must conclude that Gods (if they exist) are made of the same stuff that everything else in the Universe is made of, being categories (a) and (b).

Anyone agree or disagree with the above?

[JehovahsWitness]

QUESTION Does God have a physical body?

ANSWER: No, the Bible says God is a spirit (See John 4:24).

• Pauls explains that, If there are physical bodies there are also spiritual bodies. So, God (like all spirit beings), does have a body, a spiritual body. We don't know, nor can anyone presently explain what "a spirit body" is "made" of, what one looks like or what form(s) it takes. No human has ever seen God, nor could he and survive the experience.

Why Human Characteristics?

To help humans to understand God's nature, Bible writers were divinely inspired to use human characteristics to refer to the Almighty. Scholars call such terms anthropomorphic, meaning described or thought of as having a human form or human attributes. These terms reflect the limitations of human language to describe the true God, Jehovah. The intent was to capture the essence of the heavenly and convey this in ways that humans can comprehend. This does not mean that we should take these terms literally any more than we would Biblical references to God as “the Rock, a sun, or shield.”Deuteronomy 32:4; Psalm 84:11.
SOURCE: https://wol.jw.org/en/wol/d/r1/lp-e/102008370#h=6

JW


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NOTE All posts I write represent my personal faith based beliefs as one of Jehovah's Witnesses

[StuartJ]

[Replying to post 2 by JehovahsWitness]

QUESTION Does God have a physical body?

♦ANSWER: No, the Bible says God is a spirit (See John 4:24).

The Christian propaganda may be interpreted by some to say that the Jehovah version of "God" is a "spirit".

Other versions of "God" are not spirits.

And for Jews, the pamphlet of "John" is not in their THE Bible.

I rather think that you need to demonstrate that YOUR version of "God" really is God ...

To the exclusion of all other versions.

And then you will need to demonstrate that YOUR version of the Bible really is THE Bible ...

Otherwise, your claims have no validity whatsoever.

[postroad]

[Replying to post 2 by JehovahsWitness]


Why call it a body? Spirit indicates an undifferentiated substance. What point would there be for such an entity. I'm wondering how consciousness or personality could even manifest in such form?

[rikuoamero]

[Replying to post 2 by JehovahsWitness]

No human has ever seen God, nor could he and survive the experience.

Excuse me a mo, I'll just copy and paste some verses from the JW written and approved translation of the Bible, called the NWT.

In Genesis Chapter 32, we have the story of Jacob wrestling with God. Verse 30 has
" So Jacob named the place Pe·niʹel,*+ for he said, “I have seen God face-to-face, yet my life* was preserved.�"
...oops
Not only does Jacob, one of the most famous patriarchs of the Christian religion outright state, in your group's translation that he saw God face to face, but he also explicitly says he didn't die!

JW, if you don't believe what Jacob said...what about the great prophet Moses? The one to whom all other prophets are measured up against?
Exodus Chapter 33 has verse 11
"Jehovah spoke to Moses face-to-face,+ just as one man would speak to another man."
Let's just ignore what God says in verse 20, shall we? Since it directly contradicts the very situation playing out in that conversation, where Moses comes out alive afterwards, none the worse for wear.

Or how about Chapter 24, where Moses goes up the mountain to get the stone tablets that contain the law?
"Moses and Aaron, Naʹdab and A·biʹhu, and 70 of the elders of Israel went up, 10 and they saw the God of Israel.+ Under his feet was what seemed like a sapphire pavement, and it was as pure as the heavens themselves.+ 11 He did not harm the distinguished men of Israel,+ and they saw a vision of the true God and ate and drank."
I see no mention of anyone immediately dying of a God-induced aneurysm...

[JehovahsWitness]

[Replying to post 2 by JehovahsWitness]


Why call it a body? ...

1 CORINTHIANS 15:44

If there is a physical body, there is also a spiritual one

I'm wondering how consciousness or personality could even manifest in such form?

Well the bible says God is a spirit and he certainly is presented as having consciousness and personality. I can't see any reason to assume such a thing is any less possible than a physical being having consciousness or personality.



JW




NOTE All posts I write represent my personal faith based beliefs as one of Jehovah's Witnesses

[ytrewq]

QUESTION Does God have a physical body?

♦ANSWER: No, the Bible says God is a spirit (See John 4:24).

• Pauls explains that, If there are physical bodies there are also spiritual bodies. So, God (like all spirit beings), does have a body, a spiritual body. We don't know, nor can anyone presently explain what "a spirit body" is "made" of, what one looks like or what form(s) it takes. No human has ever seen God, nor could he and survive the experience.

OK. So you don't know what he is made of, but he does have a "body", though not a physical one. So you would say that God is not physical, and presumably therefore has no mass - he is but a mere spirit. Did I get that right?

But what does that mean? As explained previously, it makes no more sense to say that something is a spirit than to say something is love. God may well be spiritual, but it is just plain meaningless IMO to say that he is a spirit.

Look, let's get this straight. If something "exists" but is not physical, then it is in category (c) or (d) of my list of stuff on my opening post, things which do not physically exist in their own right and are not capable of performing physical feats or doing anything at all on their own.

Please read my opening post again.

You are not "making stuff up". The problem here as I see it is that you are simply quoting out of the Bible, without any consideration of whether what is said there actually makes any logical sense, and in this case it doesn't.

And to be fair, your signature makes it clear that your beliefs are faith based, so no amount of logical reasoning on my part is going to make you change your mind.

[JehovahsWitness]

You are not "making stuff up".

No I am stating my beliefs based on what the bible says. I do not presume to be in a position to state anything about the spiritual realm of my own originality. It makes logical sense to me which is why I believe it. You are in no position to say what I have or have not given consideration. If it makes no sense to you, I suggest you don't believe it.


Regards,


JW





NOTE All posts I write represent my personal faith based beliefs as one of Jehovah's Witnesses

[JehovahsWitness]

God may well be spiritual, but it is just plain meaningless IMO to say that he is a spirit.

Why? Is it meaningless to say an orange is a fruit? Is it "meaningless" to say a woman is a human? If not why is it meaningless to say "[a] god is a spirit"?



JW

[ytrewq]

You are not "making stuff up".

No I am stating my beliefs based on what the bible says. I do not presume to be in a position to state anything about the spiritual realm of my own originality. It makes logical sense to me which is why I believe it. You are in no position to say what I have or have not given consideration. If it makes no sense to you, I suggest you don't believe it.


Regards,


NOTE All posts I write represent my personal faith based beliefs as one of Jehovah's Witnesses

No problems. I was certainly not saying you had not given it consideration. I really do try very hard to write in a coherent and logical manner. When I said that saying something is a spirit makes no sense at all, then I provided a clear explanation of why.

The real problem is that religious beliefs simply don't stand up to scrutiny, when judged in the same way that we judge everything else. To their credit, some of the Christians here actually say that, explaining that religious beliefs are fundamentally different, being faith based, relying on information given directly from God to believer (Holy Spirit), and not transferable to others. This leaves us poor atheists tearing our hair out. We just don't get that, and expect religion to stand up on it's own like everything else with no faith or special pleading required.