Timothy 2:12 - A Feminist Would Disagree

[SkyChief]

"I do not permit a woman to teach or to assume authority over a man; she must be quiet. "

Any apologists here care to take a crack at this one?

Thanks!

[PinSeeker]

Sure. God designed men and women to fill specific roles in the church. There are appropriate places of leadership and authority in the church for both women and men. God endowed all people with gifts according to His choosing, none of which are "higher" or "better" than any other. And regarding the general way in which women are viewed in the church (by men and by other women), they are honored members of the Body of Christ, just as men are. And I know a whole lot of good Christian women who have a right, God-centered view of all this and thus really appreciate it all.

[StuartJ]

Unto the woman he said, I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children; and thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee.

Good Christian translators often distort the wording of biblical texts ...

But not this time ...

"He shall rule over thee" always means "He shall rule over thee"



And the Ladies Auxilliary is permitted to prepare the tea and scones ...

But not lead the congregation in worship.

After all ...

Jesus wasn't a woman ...

And none of the disciples were women.

[StuartJ]

[Replying to post 2 by PinSeeker]

Sure. God designed men and women

Your version of "God" ...

Created the planet's first human male from mud ...

And then ...

After repeated failed attempts to find him a suitable good servant by creating animals ...

Your version of "God" created the first female human from one of the man's ribs,

Apart from it being preposterous at a literal level mythology ...

It's sexist.

And it was written by misogynous males ...

NOT anyone's version of "God".

[PinSeeker]

Your version of "God" ...

...is the Biblical one.

It's sexist... misogynous... yada yada yada...

Such a limited, myopic "view" of things... But then again, God is sovereign over that. Only God can open the eyes of the blind, unstop the ears of the deaf, make the lame to leap like a deer, and cause the tongue of the mute shout for joy.

[PinSeeker]

...But not lead the congregation in worship.

Oh, now I would disagree with that. And so would God, I think.

If you want to change that a bit and say "teach," then I would agree. Unless of course the congregation in question were all women and/or children...

[PinSeeker]

Unto the woman he said, I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children; and thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee.

As for Genesis 3:16...

These words from the Lord indicate that there will be an ongoing struggle between the woman and the man for leadership in the marriage relationship (which has no doubt been the case since then throughout history). The leadership role of the husband and the complementary relationship between husband and wife that were ordered by God before the Fall were deeply damaged and distorted from the point of Adam's and Eve's sin. This especially takes the form of inordinate desire (sin on the part of the wife) and domineering rule (sin on the part of the husband) -- which, again, has no doubt been the case throughout history.

Further, the Hebrew term here translated "desire" is rarely found in the Old Testament, but it appears again in Genesis 4:7, in a statement that closely parallels 3:16 -- that is, where the Lord says to Cain, just before Cain's murder of his brother Abel, that sin's "desire is for you" (i.e., sin's desire is to master Cain), and that Cain must "rule over it" (which he immediately fails to do, by murdering his brother, as seen in 4:8). Similarly, the ongoing result of Adam and Eve's original sin of rebellion against God will have disastrous consequences for their relationship:

1. Eve will have the sinful "desire" to oppose Adam and to assert leadership over him -- to master him -- thereby reversing God's plan for Adam's leadership in marriage.

2. Adam will also abandon his God-given, pre-Fall role of leading, guarding, and caring for his wife, replacing this with his own sinful, distorted desire to "rule" over Eve.

Thus, one of the most tragic results of Adam's and Eve's rebellion against God is an ongoing, damaging conflict between husbands and wives in marriage, driven by the sinful behavior of both in rebellion against their respective God-given roles and responsibilities in marriage. And again, this is unfortunately every bit as true now as it was then.

One great day, Jesus will set it all right again.

[Tcg]

[Replying to post 1 by SkyChief]

It's not just feminist that would take exception to this.

Anyone who is not an outright misogynists would be bothered by it.

Of course the faithful will try to put a spin on it to cover for the misogyny that the Bible demands.

[rikuoamero]

[Replying to post 3 by StuartJ]

After all ...

Jesus wasn't a woman ...

And none of the disciples were women.

That is literally the answer told by one of my priest/teachers back when I was in school on this very topic.
Makes me wonder...are black people permitted to have authority? Asians? Native Americans? White people? Cuz just spitballin' here, but I coulda sworn Jesus and his disciples were Hebrews.

[Tcg]

[Replying to post 1 by SkyChief]

It's not just feminists that will disagree with this command.

Anyone who is not a misogynist will.

The faithful will of course come up with excuses to justify the misogyny their ancient and woefully outdated text preaches.