Jesus is God

[For_The_Kingdom]

First of all, I never knew that so many suspected "unbelievers" in the Christian religion were so fascinated about whether or not Jesus is God. If you don't believe in Jesus or God, then why do you care? It blows my mind.

Anyway..

I have a Biblically simplistic way of proving that Jesus is God..

Argument from Perfection: The Bible is clear, Jesus was/is without sin (morally perfect). The argument goes like this..

1. Only God is without sin
2. Jesus is without sin
3. Therefore, Jesus is God

#1 is virtually undisputed. #2 is Biblical based on two immediate Scriptures..

a. 2 Corin 5:21 "For He made Him who knew no sin to be sin for us, that we might become the righteousness of God in Him".

b. Heb 4:15 "For we do not have a High Priest who cannot sympathize with our weaknesses, but was in all points tempted as we are, yet without sin".

Now, the idea is; if you replace Jesus' name in #2 with ANY other name in Heaven or on Earth, the proposition becomes false and the entire syllogism is false.

The conclusion is simple; in order to be God, you must be without sin..and to be without sin, you must be God. Jesus meets/met those requirements, therefore, Jesus is God.

Argument from John 14:1-9: Long story short, Jesus was constantly preaching/lecturing about "The Father this, The Father that"...until Philip finally said "Lord, show us the Father, and that will be good enough"...and Jesus said, "He who has seen me has seen the Father".

Jesus is saying that seeing him is the same has seeing the Father...but if the Father is on SUCH A HIGH PEDESTAL and is light years ahead of any other entity in Heaven or on Earth, how dare Jesus say "He who has seen me has seen the Father".

In other words, if the Father took on human form and made his dwelling among us on Earth, his form would be Jesus.

If the Father is God, and Jesus said to see him is to see the Father, then Jesus must also be God. This just follows logically.

Argument from Hebrews 1:3: "The Son is the radiance of God’s glory and the exact representation of his being.."

This is the same reasoning applied to Heb 4 (above). If God is the holiest of all holiest, how can any other being come close, must less be the "exact representation" of his being?

How can you be the "exact representation" of someone that is the epitome of holiness/righteousness...unless you yourself is also the epitome of holiness/righteousness?

Actually, you can sum up all three arguments as the "Argument from Perfection"..and of course, there are plenty of other "Trinity proof" Scriptures that I can throw in there, but I wanted to attack this from a different angel.

And lastly, as much as these arguments harmonize, they are all independent...so even if you manage to wiggle your way out of one...you still have to deal with the others.

Actually, there is no way out; Jesus is God, whether we like it or not.

[brianbbs67]

I wouldn't say they are unbelievers. They are believers. Look up Arius and Athanasius. Its been going on since the beginning or at least post 70 ad. They all believed. They all did not say Christ was YHVH.

As for my opinion, for what it matters, I hold this question open without a full answer. If God were to ask me today if Christ was God, I would have to honestly answer that I don't know. I also think this is a sidebar debate pulling away from what Christ did. He is our savior. Whether God or not, does not matter.

Christ never claimed to be God. He deferred all prayer and honor to God. Being an exact representation tells the reader they are not the same but a "spitting image" of each other. Christ does say he and the Father are one. Unified. I and my wife are one. We are two different people. Since the OT always claimed the savior as a man who would come first as a suffering servant and later as a king, I defer to the scripture.

[postroad]

[Replying to post 2 by brianbbs67]


Jesus spoke almost exclusively in parables. Indicating that only those chosen would be able to understand.

[postroad]

[Replying to post 1 by For_The_Kingdom]

God is only without sin because he is above the law. Jesus also claimed to be above the law but was anyone born a Jew above the law?

[Tcg]

First of all, I never knew that so many suspected "unbelievers" in the Christian religion were so fascinated about whether or not Jesus is God.

It shouldn't surprise you.


It is no more unusual than your fascination concerning "suspected "unbelievers"".


If you do believe in Jesus or God, then why do you care?



Tcg

[For_The_Kingdom]

I wouldn't say they are unbelievers. They are believers. Look up Arius and Athanasius. Its been going on since the beginning or at least post 70 ad. They all believed. They all did not say Christ was YHVH.

The apostle John called Jesus "God" (John 20:28). And if the apostle John (who was in Jesus' inner circle) thought Jesus was God, then I think Jesus is God.

As far as "unbelievers" are concerned, I was mainly speaking about those that are on this forum. Look at the threads in this forum; a good chunk of them are related to the Trinity...threads created by people who I suspect AREN'T under the Judeo-Christian umbrella...yet, they seem to care about whether Jesus is God.

Like I said, it blows my mind.

As for my opinion, for what it matters, I hold this question open without a full answer. If God were to ask me today if Christ was God, I would have to honestly answer that I don't know. I also think this is a sidebar debate pulling away from what Christ did. He is our savior. Whether God or not, does not matter.

I think it does matter, at least to an extent. I mean, I don't personally think that whether or not one believes in the Trinity has any barren on their eternal salvation...HOWEVER, if one wants to worship in truth, then their doctrine should be in order.

Christ never claimed to be God.

But he "implied" that he is God, which is enough for us (Trinitarians). And besides, there were good reasons why Jesus didn't flat out say "I am God"..however, he did occasionally put it out there..which is all us Trinitarians need to know to draw the conclusion.

He deferred all prayer and honor to God.

So, you mentioned prayer, and honor...right?

Honor: Jesus said that they should "honor the Son as they honor the Father" (John 5:23).

You wouldn't dare give any person on Earth or in Heaven the same honor that you give the Father, would you? Unless the person is also God.

Prayer: Stephen, while he was being stoned to death, prayed to Jesus (Acts 7:59).

Hmmm.

Being an exact representation tells the reader they are not the same but a "spitting image" of each other. Christ does say he and the Father are one.
Unified. I and my wife are one. We are two different people. Since the OT always claimed the savior as a man who would come first as a suffering servant and later as a king, I defer to the scripture.

By "the same", we are not saying they are the same PERSON...we are saying they share the same NATURE/ESSENCE...which is divinity.

We (orthodox Trinitarians) don't hold a modalistic view of the Trinity...we are saying that the Father/Son/Holy Spirit are three distinct persons who share the same Deity/nature.

[postroad]

[Replying to post 6 by For_The_Kingdom]


Believers are the evidence for Jesus's legitimacy. I find myself fascinated that they can't even agree on the nature of his being but can agree that nonbelievers are reprobate.

Interesting as I imagine claiming to be a representative of Christ and spreading false belief seems to be a worse offence than being skeptical of the whole thing because believers can't give a non conflicting testimony?

Your testimony regarding the nature of Christ cancels out the testimony of brisnbbs and his cancelles out yours.

How will I be convicted based on the evidence that claims that you two have presented?

[myth-one.com]

Jesus is God
Point Blank, PERIOD

The Word is a spiritual bodied being in the Kingdom of God. Consequently, the Word cannot die -- being immortal.

But Jesus was the Word made flesh:

And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us... (John 1:14)

Jesus was made a man for the purpose of dying!

But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honor; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man. (Hebrews 2:9)

Jesus Christ was made to be "a little lower than the angels," exactly as man was created:

What is man, that thou art mindful of him? ...For thou hast made him a little lower than the angels, (Psalm 8:4-5)

He was a special man, and a man knowing His mission, but still a man.

Anyway..

I have a Biblically simplistic way of proving that Jesus is God..

Argument from Perfection: The Bible is clear, Jesus was/is without sin (morally perfect). The argument goes like this..

1. Only God is without sin
2. Jesus is without sin
3. Therefore, Jesus is God

1. God is immortal.
2. Jesus died on the cross.
3. Therefore, Jesus was not God.

But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many.

If Jesus was God, then He could not fulfill His mission, and we would have no Savior!

How do you resolve that logical problem?

[ttruscott]

Anyway..

I have a Biblically simplistic way of proving that Jesus is God..

Argument from Perfection: The Bible is clear, Jesus was/is without sin (morally perfect). The argument goes like this..

1. Only God is without sin
2. Jesus is without sin
3. Therefore, Jesus is God

1. God is immortal.
2. Jesus died on the cross.
3. Therefore, Jesus was not God.

Your fixation on the fate of the body leads you astray...
The meaning of 'death' is variable. It can mean the death of one's body or the eternal separation from GOD as found in the banishment to the outer darkness. I reject that the spirits created in GOD's image can be annihilated so death does not mean annihilation.

So how does the death of the body that GOD chose to inhabit prove non-Divinity??? You do not seem to be claiming that GOD cannot inhabit a mortal body that will die when when He leaves that body. All alive bodies are inhabited by a spirit that transcends that body...where is it written that that spirit cannot be a Divine Spirit?

It's wrong to use mortal about the spirit that survives the death of its body...only bodies are mortal and so far only resurrected bodies are immortal, maybe.

But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many.

If Jesus was God, then He could not fulfill His mission, and we would have no Savior!

How do you resolve that logical problem?

A Divine Spirit can be in a mortal body the same as any spirit, and therefore can leave the body and it will die...how does that interfere with His death being to our salvation???
And His resurrection being to our highest hope??

[postroad]

[Replying to post 9 by ttruscott]

A disposable body can sanctify an eternal soul?