Some researcher on Paul's Epistles noted these says?
Should we believe without question what he claims in his Epistles?
"For if the truth of God hath more abounded through my lie unto his glory; why yet am I also judged as a sinner?" (Rom. 3.7)
and
"Though the more abundantly I love you, the less I be loved. But be it so: ... nevertheless, being crafty, I caught you with guile." (2 Cor. 12.15-16)�
He sounds sort of manipulative, doesn't he?
Can we believe what Paul tells us?
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Re: Can we believe what Paul tells us?
Post #2[Replying to post 1 by polonius]
He lied about the Jerusalem incident in his letter to the Galatians.
He lied about the Jerusalem incident in his letter to the Galatians.
Re: Can we believe what Paul tells us?
Post #3How can you say that? Paul's letter to Galatians is regarded as historic over the acts report. What do you base your judgement on? Acts?postroad wrote: [Replying to post 1 by polonius]
He lied about the Jerusalem incident in his letter to the Galatians.
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Wootah
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Re: Can we believe what Paul tells us?
Post #4[Replying to post 1 by polonius]
This is a fallacious argument. Truth is truth regardless of intent or style of delivery.
This is a fallacious argument. Truth is truth regardless of intent or style of delivery.
Proverbs 18:17 The one who states his case first seems right, until the other comes and examines him.
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"Why is everyone so quick to reason God might be petty. Now that is creating God in our own image
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Member Notes: viewtopic.php?t=33826
"Why is everyone so quick to reason God might be petty. Now that is creating God in our own image
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Post #5
Peace to you!
Everyone realizes that the following is not Paul's argument, right?
This is what the OP quoted:
"Someone might argue, “If my falsehood enhances God’s truthfulness and so increases his glory, why am I still condemned as a sinner?"�
What comes after "someone might argue" is not Paul's argument. This is the full argument and context:
"But if our unrighteousness brings out God’s righteousness more clearly, what shall we say? That God is unjust in bringing his wrath on us? (I am using a human argument.) 6 Certainly not! If that were so, how could God judge the world? 7 Someone might argue, “If my falsehood enhances God’s truthfulness and so increases his glory, why am I still condemned as a sinner?� 8 Why not say—as some slanderously claim that we say—“Let us do evil that good may result�? Their condemnation is just!"
Paul is arguing AGAINST what the OP quotes of Romans 3:7.
Peace again to you,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy
Everyone realizes that the following is not Paul's argument, right?
This is what the OP quoted:
I am going to quote the NIV because on this occasion, the NIV makes this a bit more clear:"For if the truth of God hath more abounded through my lie unto his glory; why yet am I also judged as a sinner?" (Rom. 3.7)
"Someone might argue, “If my falsehood enhances God’s truthfulness and so increases his glory, why am I still condemned as a sinner?"�
What comes after "someone might argue" is not Paul's argument. This is the full argument and context:
"But if our unrighteousness brings out God’s righteousness more clearly, what shall we say? That God is unjust in bringing his wrath on us? (I am using a human argument.) 6 Certainly not! If that were so, how could God judge the world? 7 Someone might argue, “If my falsehood enhances God’s truthfulness and so increases his glory, why am I still condemned as a sinner?� 8 Why not say—as some slanderously claim that we say—“Let us do evil that good may result�? Their condemnation is just!"
Paul is arguing AGAINST what the OP quotes of Romans 3:7.
Peace again to you,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy
An accurate translation of Paul's writings.
Post #6Romans 3:7 New Revised Standard Version (NRSV)
7 But if through my falsehood God’s truthfulness abounds to his glory, why am I still being condemned as a sinner?
Romans 3:7 New American Bible (Revised Edition) (NABRE)
7 But if God’s truth redounds to his glory through my falsehood, why am I still being condemned as a sinner?
From Wikipedia
“In 2009, the New Testament scholar N. T. Wright wrote that the NIV obscured what Paul the Apostle was saying, making sure that Paul's words conformed to Protestant and Evangelical tradition. He claims, "I do know that if a church only, or mainly, relies on the NIV it will, quite simply, never understand what Paul was talking about," especially in Galatians and Romans.[23] “
Wright, N. T. (2009). Justification : God's Plan and Paul's Vision. Downers Grove, Ill.: IVP Academic. pp. 51–52. ISBN 978-0-8308-3863-9. Retrieved March 15, 2015.
https://probe.org/which-version-of-the- ... -accurate/
“The NIV is a dynamic translation, where the translators sought to communicate the general idea and thoughts behind the original languages, rather than an actual word-for-word translation, which can tend to be more wooden. I no longer use the NIV exclusively (although I did for 20 years) because I am frustrated by the fact that they translate the word “flesh� as “sin nature,� which leads to a misunderstanding of the Christian life, I believe. I have joined the ranks of a growing number who have returned to the NASB for serious Bible study.�
Sue Bohlin
Probe Ministries
Perhaps you should consult a more reliable translation of the Bible than the NIV, although I understand that the NIV is more popular with those of a fundamentalist leaning.
The NRSV is a product of the World Council of Churches. The NAB is the Catholic version. Both are copied (as far as they are available) from the earliest texts written in their original languages. They don’t translate portions to support dogma.
7 But if through my falsehood God’s truthfulness abounds to his glory, why am I still being condemned as a sinner?
Romans 3:7 New American Bible (Revised Edition) (NABRE)
7 But if God’s truth redounds to his glory through my falsehood, why am I still being condemned as a sinner?
From Wikipedia
“In 2009, the New Testament scholar N. T. Wright wrote that the NIV obscured what Paul the Apostle was saying, making sure that Paul's words conformed to Protestant and Evangelical tradition. He claims, "I do know that if a church only, or mainly, relies on the NIV it will, quite simply, never understand what Paul was talking about," especially in Galatians and Romans.[23] “
Wright, N. T. (2009). Justification : God's Plan and Paul's Vision. Downers Grove, Ill.: IVP Academic. pp. 51–52. ISBN 978-0-8308-3863-9. Retrieved March 15, 2015.
https://probe.org/which-version-of-the- ... -accurate/
“The NIV is a dynamic translation, where the translators sought to communicate the general idea and thoughts behind the original languages, rather than an actual word-for-word translation, which can tend to be more wooden. I no longer use the NIV exclusively (although I did for 20 years) because I am frustrated by the fact that they translate the word “flesh� as “sin nature,� which leads to a misunderstanding of the Christian life, I believe. I have joined the ranks of a growing number who have returned to the NASB for serious Bible study.�
Sue Bohlin
Probe Ministries
Perhaps you should consult a more reliable translation of the Bible than the NIV, although I understand that the NIV is more popular with those of a fundamentalist leaning.
The NRSV is a product of the World Council of Churches. The NAB is the Catholic version. Both are copied (as far as they are available) from the earliest texts written in their original languages. They don’t translate portions to support dogma.
Re: An accurate translation of Paul's writings.
Post #7[Replying to post 6 by polonius]
The NIV makes explicit what the NRSV expects readers to understand from context: In the midst of a lengthy argument Paul paused to put forth a false proposition that he argued must be rejected. The NIV and NRSV both show that Paul explicitly said he was doing this in verse 5, and then reminded readers that this is what he was doing in verse 8.
Here are the first 8 verses of chapter 3 from the NRSV.
Then what advantage has the Jew? Or what is the value of circumcision? 2 Much, in every way. For in the first place the Jews[a] were entrusted with the oracles of God. 3 What if some were unfaithful? Will their faithlessness nullify the faithfulness of God? 4 By no means! Although everyone is a liar, let God be proved true, as it is written,
“So that you may be justified in your words,
and prevail in your judging.�
5 But if our injustice serves to confirm the justice of God, what should we say? That God is unjust to inflict wrath on us? (I speak in a human way.) 6 By no means! For then how could God judge the world? 7 But if through my falsehood God’s truthfulness abounds to his glory, why am I still being condemned as a sinner? 8 And why not say (as some people slander us by saying that we say), “Let us do evil so that good may come�? Their condemnation is deserved!
The NIV makes explicit what the NRSV expects readers to understand from context: In the midst of a lengthy argument Paul paused to put forth a false proposition that he argued must be rejected. The NIV and NRSV both show that Paul explicitly said he was doing this in verse 5, and then reminded readers that this is what he was doing in verse 8.
Here are the first 8 verses of chapter 3 from the NRSV.
Then what advantage has the Jew? Or what is the value of circumcision? 2 Much, in every way. For in the first place the Jews[a] were entrusted with the oracles of God. 3 What if some were unfaithful? Will their faithlessness nullify the faithfulness of God? 4 By no means! Although everyone is a liar, let God be proved true, as it is written,
“So that you may be justified in your words,
and prevail in your judging.�
5 But if our injustice serves to confirm the justice of God, what should we say? That God is unjust to inflict wrath on us? (I speak in a human way.) 6 By no means! For then how could God judge the world? 7 But if through my falsehood God’s truthfulness abounds to his glory, why am I still being condemned as a sinner? 8 And why not say (as some people slander us by saying that we say), “Let us do evil so that good may come�? Their condemnation is deserved!
Understand that you might believe. Believe that you might understand. –Augustine of Hippo
Re: Can we believe what Paul tells us?
Post #8The poor guy was chosen to "pasture" the "flock doomed to slaughter" (Zechariah 11:7-10), the Gentile church. His deceit is best encapsulated by Jeremiah 48:10," Cursed be the one who does the Lord's work with deceit". Paul is fulfilling part of the Law and the prophets, but his reward is "annihilation" (Zechariah 11:8), the same with Judas Iscariot (Zechariah 11:12-13). Paul and Judas were just playing their roles, and poor Paul's best friend, Satan, gave him a cursed gift of a pain in the side. And his political ally, the "beast", Nero, apparently had him choked to death. All you Catholics out there, you might want to burn a candle for poor Paul, that way it will reduce the shock of having to put his feet in the "lake of fire" (Revelation 20:10). To be fair, it is probably his demon spirit which is going to take all the heat (Revelation 16:13-16 & 20:10). I am not sure how Paul expects to get out of his predicament. Maybe like the Superman's bad guys,' they could exile him to the far and beyond. But I think the bad guys broke out of those chains. Maybe God knows best. I would have to assume that Paul's personal demon spirit has been a very good liar from the beginning of creation and before. But look on the bright side, if Paul is not a liar, then "you surely shall not die" (Genesis 3:4).polonius wrote: Some researcher on Paul's Epistles noted these says?
Should we believe without question what he claims in his Epistles?
"For if the truth of God hath more abounded through my lie unto his glory; why yet am I also judged as a sinner?" (Rom. 3.7)
and
"Though the more abundantly I love you, the less I be loved. But be it so: ... nevertheless, being crafty, I caught you with guile." (2 Cor. 12.15-16)�
He sounds sort of manipulative, doesn't he?
The "context" ploy.
Post #9BJS posted:
BJS posted:
[ quote] The NIV makes explicit what the NRSV expects readers to understand from context: In the midst of a lengthy argument Paul paused to put forth a false proposition that he argued must be rejected. The NIV and NRSV both show that Paul explicitly said he was doing this in verse 5, and then reminded readers that this is what he was doing in verse 8. [/quote]
RESPONSE:
“7 But if through my falsehood God’s truthfulness abounds to his glory, why am I still being condemned as a sinner?�
Probably because Paul lied.
Colossians 3:9 says, “Do not lie to each other, since you have taken off your old self with its practices.� Lying is listed in 1 Timothy 1:9-11 as something practiced by the lawless. Furthermore, liars will be among those judged in the end (Revelation 21:8). In contrast, God never lies (Titus 1:2). He is the source of truth. “It is impossible for God to lie� (Hebrews 6:18).
RESPONSE: I prefer the actual text, not one that may have been altered to support the beliefs of a particular faith group.The NIV makes explicit what the NRSV expects readers to understand from context: In the midst of a lengthy argument Paul paused to put forth a false proposition that he argued must be rejected. The NIV and NRSV both show that Paul explicitly said he was doing this in verse 5, and then reminded readers that this is what he was doing in verse 8.
BJS posted:
[ quote] The NIV makes explicit what the NRSV expects readers to understand from context: In the midst of a lengthy argument Paul paused to put forth a false proposition that he argued must be rejected. The NIV and NRSV both show that Paul explicitly said he was doing this in verse 5, and then reminded readers that this is what he was doing in verse 8. [/quote]
RESPONSE:
“7 But if through my falsehood God’s truthfulness abounds to his glory, why am I still being condemned as a sinner?�
Probably because Paul lied.
Colossians 3:9 says, “Do not lie to each other, since you have taken off your old self with its practices.� Lying is listed in 1 Timothy 1:9-11 as something practiced by the lawless. Furthermore, liars will be among those judged in the end (Revelation 21:8). In contrast, God never lies (Titus 1:2). He is the source of truth. “It is impossible for God to lie� (Hebrews 6:18).
Re: Can we believe what Paul tells us?
Post #10[Replying to polonius]
We can rust Paul to be the founding Christian theologian. His theology is (like Christianity) all about the risen Christ. I wonder if Paul would have been a disciple if had the chance, Paul was something in addition to Jesus, he didn't preach the words and deeds of Jesus. He preach postmortem words and deeds of Jesus. The power of the risen Christ. So we can believe in what Paul tells us. 'cause that's what he thought. His experience with Christ was totally spiritual, not Jewish, something new and different called (you got it) Christianity. This was what he called his new gospel.
We can rust Paul to be the founding Christian theologian. His theology is (like Christianity) all about the risen Christ. I wonder if Paul would have been a disciple if had the chance, Paul was something in addition to Jesus, he didn't preach the words and deeds of Jesus. He preach postmortem words and deeds of Jesus. The power of the risen Christ. So we can believe in what Paul tells us. 'cause that's what he thought. His experience with Christ was totally spiritual, not Jewish, something new and different called (you got it) Christianity. This was what he called his new gospel.
