Would you stone the man described in Numbers 15?

[Jagella]

Consider this story from Numbers 15:32-36(NRSV):

When the Israelites were in the wilderness, they found a man gathering sticks on the sabbath day. Those who found him gathering sticks brought him to Moses, Aaron, and to the whole congregation. They put him in custody, because it was not clear what should be done to him. Then the Lord said to Moses, “The man shall be put to death; all the congregation shall stone him outside the camp.� The whole congregation brought him outside the camp and stoned him to death, just as the Lord had commanded Moses.

Question for Debate: If you were there with these Israelites, would you stone this man in obedience to Moses and to Yahweh?

Keep in mind that this man may have been gathering sticks to build a fire to cook for for his family and to keep them warm. After the Bible god had him killed, any wife he had would be left a widow and any children he had would be left without a father to provide for them. They would be left cold, hungry, and facing poverty. Any friends he had among the Israelites would be obligated to kill their friend.

Despite these consequences of Yahweh's order to stone the man to death, all the Jews and by extension all Christians coming later must obey the Bible god. Any objections you have to this cruel act are nothing to Yahweh and may even result in a similar punishment for disobedience to him. You have a god you must believe in and obey without question and without reason.

I predict that few if any of the Christians here will answer this question honestly and sensibly. To post such an answer is to expose Christian beliefs for what they are.

[PinSeeker]

Are you saying that you are not arguing for GOD?

Well, I'm restating (over and over again) what He has said in His word. Like I've said several times, I'm merely the messenger. What God does with that is His business.

Are you aware that you are in a debate setting...

I'm very well aware of where I am. Again, I'm just correcting (over and over again) your misunderstandings. It's you trying to argue with me, and as I keep saying, your argument(s) is (are) not really with me, but with God.

So their argument is indeed with YOU, not "GOD".

Temporally speaking, sure, but not ultimately. That's why I have no interest in "winning." My victory has already been won on my behalf. I hope that will be true of you someday, too.

[rikuoamero]

[Replying to post 136 by William]

For me the importance of understand the OPQ is to determine whether I as a modern human would resort to ancient acts of tribal in-house barbarism if I were somehow able to transport back to those ancient times.

I could think of worse ways of dying. Being skinned alive as one example. Maybe I would resort to barbarism if that was all that were available to me, if the punishment for not doing so meant being skinned alive, or dispatched in some other excruciating manner...the very thought of time travelling back to such times is enough to make me count my blessings for living in the current one, and hopefully humans will still be around in the future, saying as much about this present time.

The question is different for people like you and I, and for people like Pinseeker & the others.
People like you and I do not (as far as we're aware at least) have an all knowing, all wise, all powerful god watching out for us. We have to make do, and yes, that can mean we could end up in a situation caught between a rock and a hard place (no pun intended).
However, the question when directed at Christians is different. They profess a loving god, a wise god, a god who watches and protects and teaches. However, what I have seen on this thread is nothing more than abject servitude to the absolute basest bloodlust in humanity, all because someone thousands of years ago painted a god over it. They don't question it. They admit to being willing to go along with it.
This brings to mind an episode early on from a famous animé called Hunter x Hunter. Our protagonist is on his journey to become [strike]Hokage[/strike] [strike]Pokemon Master[/strike], excuse me, a Hunter. One of his first challenges is to answer a question: in a time of danger, which should he rescue first, a son or a daughter? People who answer one or the other are told to proceed down a path, but our protagonist dawdles, even though he has been warned that not giving an answer counts as a failure.
You might have guessed that the question is a trick: the fact that he isn't quick to answer such a question serves as a show of his moral compass. There is no "correct" answer and those who answer too quickly or give short simple reasons as to what they'd do, show that they aren't exactly to be trusted.

[Tcg]

Given that God hasn't bothered to post here, I'm am in a discussion with you. If god ever bothers to show up, I'll address it directly.

Very well. Yes, we'll all see Him, eventually. You can argue with Him then. Like I said, let me know how that turns out.

No. You said my argument was with him, present tense. As I stated, this discussion is with you, present tense.


My discussion with you has turned out to be most unsatisfactory given that you haven't supported the claims you make for your mythological god.




Tcg

[rikuoamero]

Given that God hasn't bothered to post here, I'm am in a discussion with you. If god ever bothers to show up, I'll address it directly.

Very well. Yes, we'll all see Him, eventually. You can argue with Him then. Like I said, let me know how that turns out.

No. You said my argument was with him, present tense. As I stated, this discussion is with you, present tense.


My discussion with you has turned out to be most unsatisfactory given that you haven't supported the claims you make for your mythological god.




Tcg

More to the point, the question is what would you do (not you specifically Tcg). The argument has shown what some of this forum's more vocal Christians would do - go with the crowd, go with what has been claimed to be God's word and kill a man. This, at least to me, puts the lie to the Christian claim that with God one can become a better person, that God is a god of peace and justice and wisdom. I don't see that with those who proudly say they'd kill a man just for [strike]picking up sticks[/strike]...excuse me, violating the Sabbath, as if that absolves them.

[Mithrae]

They profess a loving god, a wise god, a god who watches and protects and teaches.

However, what I have seen on this thread is nothing more than abject servitude to the absolute basest bloodlust in humanity, all because someone thousands of years ago painted a god over it.

This brings to mind an episode early on from a famous animé called Hunter x Hunter. Our protagonist is on his journey to become [strike]Hokage[/strike] [strike]Pokemon Master[/strike], excuse me, a Hunter. One of his first challenges is to answer a question: in a time of danger, which should he rescue first, a son or a daughter? People who answer one or the other are told to proceed down a path, but our protagonist dawdles, even though he has been warned that not giving an answer counts as a failure.
You might have guessed that the question is a trick: the fact that he isn't quick to answer such a question serves as a show of his moral compass. There is no "correct" answer and those who answer too quickly or give short simple reasons as to what they'd do, show that they aren't exactly to be trusted.

Perhaps those who assume that Numbers 15 represents "a loving god, a wise god" and those who imagine that it represents "the absolute basest bloodlust in humanity" are both adopting superficial positions. I think I'm the only person who has responded in depth without making any unjustifiable assumptions or assertions one way or the other; instead noting that the author/s presumably had a vested interest in the overall well-being of their society and its people but also the difficulty (for them, and even moreso for us) in ascertaining the optimal balance of social cohesion, personal holiness and harsh deterrence in their comparatively primitive society. I guess I'm the hunter in your tale; maybe I should get a medal or something

[William]

[Replying to post 140 by PinSeeker]

Well, I'm restating (over and over again) what He has said in His word. Like I've said several times, I'm merely the messenger. What God does with that is His business.

Then I respectfully advise that you are in the incorrect sub-forum to present such argument.

Being merely a messenger of merely a weak idea of a GOD of a book, tends toward the mistake of claiming one is speaking on behalf of one's particular idea of GOD. rather than actually speaking on behalf of any actual GOD.

Presumably you are leaning on the guideline which implies "True Christians/Christianity" actually exists, which allows for you to make such conflicting claims in a debate setting?

You do not appear to be avoiding using the bible as the sole source to prove that Christianity is true. If you are using the bible as the only source to argue what is authentic legitimate Christianity, then you will also have to establish that your particular brand of Christianity is the 'legitimate' one. Good luck with that.

Your argument appears purely based upon the belief in the theology which holds the assumption that the bible is an authoritative source. You might consider posting your 'messages from your bible GOD', in the Theology, Doctrine, and Dogma subforum, since that is where such arguments belong.

“The Bible (or Quran or Bhagavad Gita) says so� is NOT acceptable as proof of truth in THIS forum.

Basically when you write "I am GODs Messenger" you are really saying "I am a believer in the bible." which is besides the point, because the 2 are conflated for that purpose. You are therefore, really, "The bibles messenger" and in that are you are really only 1 of many who offer their opinions as to 'how to best interpret the book in order to give the impression one is an 'authentic' Christian, and 'messenger' of an 'authentic' GOD.

[PinSeeker]

[Replying to post 140 by PinSeeker]

Well, I'm restating (over and over again) what He has said in His word. Like I've said several times, I'm merely the messenger. What God does with that is His business.

Then I respectfully advise that you are in the incorrect sub-forum to present such argument.

Oh, well, I respectfully but most wholeheartedly disagree. This is the Apologetics sub-forum after all. And the rest of your little diatribe here deserves the same type of response. Good day, William.[/quote]

[PinSeeker]

More to the point, the question is what would you do (not you specifically Tcg). The argument has shown what some of this forum's more vocal Christians would do - go with the crowd, go with what has been claimed to be God's word and kill a man. This, at least to me, puts the lie to the Christian claim that with God one can become a better person, that God is a god of peace and justice and wisdom. I don't see that with those who proudly say they'd kill a man just for [strike]picking up sticks[/strike]...excuse me, violating the Sabbath, as if that absolves them.

You may recall one of the Lord's beatitudes... "Blessed are the peacemakers, for they shall be called sons of God." That implies that there are those who do not intend to make peace, but (putting it mildly) stir controversy and cause discord. And that would seem to be the case with you. And your cohorts here. At least at this point; that may not always be the case. And I would hope that for you. Good day, riko.

[rikuoamero]

[Replying to post 147 by PinSeeker]

That implies that there are those who do not intend to make peace, but (putting it mildly) stir controversy and cause discord. And that would seem to be the case with you.

You say that as if it's in any way comparable to stating one is willing to bash a man's skull in with heavy rocks simply because one believes a god has commanded it.
Do you consider yourself one of the "peacemakers" from that beatitude?

[Jagella]

This barbarism is indeed included in the foundation Christianity has chosen to build itself upon. It'd be nice to think this is in the past, but given the number of Christians who support this barbarism and have reported they would willingly participate in it if they had the chance, it clearly is a present problem.

We need to spread the word about this problem. We are witnessing examples of what psychologists refer to as psychopathy. From Wikipedia:

Psychopathy is traditionally a personality disorder characterized by persistent antisocial behavior, impaired empathy and remorse, and bold, disinhibited, and egotistical traits.

Note that some of the Christian members here almost make a joke out of the murder story in Numbers 15. There is indeed "impaired empathy and remorse" as they assure us that they would kill their own families for their religion.

When we look to Revelation we see that even worse barbarism is part of the future of Christianity according to the mythology. Past, present, and future barbarism. Hopefully, it will indeed be rejected some day.

Jesus is infinitely worse than Moses. Moses killed people and finished the job while Jesus tortures eternally. And Christians call that an improvement!

Great thread even though many of the responses to it sadly reveal a shocking agreement with senseless brutality.

I've found that appealing to people's morality is useless if they have none. In this case criticizing Christianity for its violence does no good because many Christians love its violence.