Would you stone the man described in Numbers 15?

[Jagella]

Consider this story from Numbers 15:32-36(NRSV):

When the Israelites were in the wilderness, they found a man gathering sticks on the sabbath day. Those who found him gathering sticks brought him to Moses, Aaron, and to the whole congregation. They put him in custody, because it was not clear what should be done to him. Then the Lord said to Moses, “The man shall be put to death; all the congregation shall stone him outside the camp.� The whole congregation brought him outside the camp and stoned him to death, just as the Lord had commanded Moses.

Question for Debate: If you were there with these Israelites, would you stone this man in obedience to Moses and to Yahweh?

Keep in mind that this man may have been gathering sticks to build a fire to cook for for his family and to keep them warm. After the Bible god had him killed, any wife he had would be left a widow and any children he had would be left without a father to provide for them. They would be left cold, hungry, and facing poverty. Any friends he had among the Israelites would be obligated to kill their friend.

Despite these consequences of Yahweh's order to stone the man to death, all the Jews and by extension all Christians coming later must obey the Bible god. Any objections you have to this cruel act are nothing to Yahweh and may even result in a similar punishment for disobedience to him. You have a god you must believe in and obey without question and without reason.

I predict that few if any of the Christians here will answer this question honestly and sensibly. To post such an answer is to expose Christian beliefs for what they are.

[Tcg]

Yes, we have finally found a point of agreement.

Good! Right, because you're "reality" is not really reality. You'll see. You'll see.

No need to wait for the future, at least not if you had evidence.


Present reality is what matters, reality in the local bar and the Quaker meeting.


Plenty of folks who aren't filthy, rotten sinners.






Tcg

[tam]

Peace to you,

[Replying to post 161 by tam]

Then there are questions about me: Would I have been the same person at that time? How might events have shaped me differently? Would I have known then what/who I know now?

(Some also seem to forget that Israel vowed to obey Moses. Israel was too afraid to hear God, they wanted Moses to talk to God, then tell them what God wanted, and they would obey whatever Moses, the servant of God, said. So Israel was obligated by their own word. That was their choice.)

and;

Oh, and there is at least one thing I could have done regardless of the circumstances (or of the time or place or conditions):


I could have asked for mercy for the man. God desires mercy, after all, and not sacrifice (Hosea 6:6). If I had the courage and the love to do this, then I would have done so respectfully, as Abraham asked God about Sodom and Gomorrah. But asking mercy for the man is something I could have done, even 3000-ish years ago.

These two things appear to me to be at odds with each other.

In what way, William?

[rikuoamero]

[Replying to post 167 by PinSeeker]

But even so, we're all about ourselves; selfish, prideful, disdaining others, even hating and murderous, at least to some degree. All this manifests itself differently in different people, but it's all there, even if muted... or only inwardly. This is the way we all are. Every one of us. As I said above -- not in so many words, but I will now: just because we are sinners -- even filthy, rotten sinners... as if one sinner is a worse sinner than anybody else -- doesn't mean we are in human terms "bad people." It just (chuckle... "just") means we fall far, far short of God's standard of perfection and perfect mercy, justice, and love.

This is what I don't get about you. Here you are, saying that people being hateful, violent and murderous is a bad thing (sinful in your words). I would not disagree. I wish we would not be hateful, violent and murderous.
And yet, what is this very story about? It's about a bunch of Hebrews, being hateful, violent and murderous toward their fellow man (there's no point arguing with me on the point of them being hateful, this is a stoning after all) apparently at the command of their god.
Explain it to me Pin, how this thing that you call sinful, this violence hate and murder...is or was commanded by your god. This is what turns me off from your religion. On the one hand, you guys say there's thing called sin that your god is basically repelled by, that we as humans are supposed to not do or not be...and yet apparently your god commands for us to be sinful, do sin?

[PinSeeker]

It's about a bunch of Hebrews, being hateful, violent and murderous toward their fellow man (there's no point arguing with me on the point of them being hateful, this is a stoning after all) apparently at the command of their god.

No, it's really not about the Hebrews -- Israelites -- at all. It's about God and His hatred of sin, and His desire to free His people from the bondage to sin that they themselves -- in Adam, as the federal head of the human race -- chose. Humanly speaking, it's about the "stick-picker-upper" (again, it's somewhat humorous, in a dark way, how you guys try to trivialize it) and his disregard for and even hatred of God and His Law -- which was itself redemptive and not punitive -- and his deserved punishment. And in that way, it's a lesson for us even today. This is precisely why Moses related the incident. Like I said, we don't have to worry about getting stoned for sin, because the civil law is no longer in effect. But the wages of sin is still death, and we, just like the Israelites, need a Savior Who has paid it Himself on our behalf and thereby redeemed us to God.

Explain it to me Pin, how this thing that you call sinful, this violence hate and murder...is or was commanded by your god.

That can't be what you really think. It's the very opposite. Surely you understand that. Surely. But, ergo, no explanation necessary.

This is what turns me off from your religion.

No, what turns you off is your own hatred, your own pride, your own selfishness... your own sin. Oh, I'm sure you're a nice guy, and if we sat down and had a Bud Light together, I'm quite sure we'd get along quite well. But that's really beside the point. All this proves my point. Again.

[PinSeeker]

No need to wait for the future...

I agree that we shouldn't just wait on the future.

...at least not if you had evidence.

But I do. Or rather, we do; there's all we need, or could ever ask for, really. Like I said, you will see.

Present reality is what matters...

Well, I agree that present reality matters. But really only because of it's impact on the coming Reality.

Plenty of folks who aren't filthy, rotten sinners.

Nope. Not one.

[rikuoamero]

[Replying to post 173 by PinSeeker]

Pin...you seem to be completely detached from reality.

No, what turns you off is your own hatred, your own pride, your own selfishness... your own sin. Oh, I'm sure you're a nice guy, and if we sat down and had a Bud Light Smile together, I'm quite sure we'd get along quite well.

If you and I sat down had a Bud Light (well you can have that, I don't like alcohol), why then would you say of me that I hate, am prideful, am selfish? What makes you think that of me, if you're not going by my actions? It's like you're convicting people (just like the man in Numbers 15) of all sorts of things and they don't have the benefit of a defense, to argue their own case.

Humanly speaking, it's about the "stick-picker-upper" (again, it's somewhat humorous, in a dark way, how you guys try to trivialize it)

As far as I'm aware, I'm the only one who has used that term. I use it to make my point, that all of this is over a man...who picked up sticks. He didn't kidnap someone, he didn't rape someone, he didn't sell out his people to enemy tribes...he just picked up sticks.

and his disregard for and even hatred of God and His Law

I find it appalling how you are able to read all this of the man, and say he's evil and hated your god...when the story is incredibly brief and doesn't tell us anything about him. I reiterate what I said in an earlier comment: this religion of yours divides mankind, and despite all the rhetoric of peace and love...actually has you, its adherents, hating their fellow man.

and his deserved punishment.

Which was apparently heavy stones to the skull.

That can't be what you really think. It's the very opposite. Surely you understand that. Surely. But, ergo, no explanation necessary.

You're complaining about violence and murder from humans towards humans, and this story has your god commanding violence and murder from humans towards humans. So yes, it is what I think. If violence and murder is a bad thing in your eyes (and mine), why is your god commanding it?

[Zzyzx]

.

Plenty of folks who aren't filthy, rotten sinners.

Nope. Not one.

Negativism toward humanity is often a hallmark of religions that sell 'redemption' in a supposed 'afterlife'.

Many of us prefer a more positive attitude and a pleasant life before we die.

[William]

[Replying to post 171 by tam]

These two things appear to me to be at odds with each other.

In what way, William?

Well Tam, it seems from what I understand you are trying to say, that you being you now with the knowledge you know etc - then transported to that time, would attempt to convince Moses - whom you say that Israel vowed to obey...rather than GOD...

If that is the case, your thinking you can turn that around by asking for mercy for the man by asking Moses 'respectfully' to not sacrifice the man, would most likely get you killed as well, or at least shunned by the Tribe.

[rikuoamero]

I think I'm just about done with this thread (and my own related thread). I've argued my case, and I honestly can't think of anything more to say...bar one.

To the Christians who answered they would stone the man, here's one final question from me, that none of you seem to have even thought of. Admittedly, none of the atheist skeptic crowd seem to have thought of it either...
Why stoning? Even if we (myself and Z and the other atheist skeptics) were to agree with your arguments that this is one of God's highest laws, this is one of the Ten Commandments, this man was evil etc etc...why stoning? Why such a violent and harsh method of execution? Why couldn't God just direct the Hebrews to a plant that when ingested acts as a painless poison?
If we as humans are inherently sinful, inherently evil and wicked and violent, etc etc...why is God commanding a perpetuation of this behaviour? Why not just banish the stick-picker-upper?

[tam]

[Replying to post 177 by William]

Oh, no, William, time travel considerations were not part of my response. My response considered only having been born and raised back then, as an Israelite (or as one of the great mixed crowd that left Egypt with Israel).


Peace to you.