Debate with a scientist

Creationism, Evolution, and other science issues

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John Human
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Debate with a scientist

Post #1

Post by John Human »

Back in December and January, I had a debate with a scientist at a forum for medieval genealogists, where people routinely ridicule the thought of directly communicating with deceased ancestors. (For an explanation of communicating with ancestors, see https://www.wikitree.com/g2g/535187/com ... -ancestors)

Toward the end of December, a “scientist and engineer� appeared and initiated a debate. For the very first time, somebody actually tried to refute me instead of the usual fare of contempt and insults. This self-identified scientist made it very clear that he dismissed my lengthy stories from ancestors as hallucinations, because of his reductionist materialist presupposition that any such communication at a distance, without some sort of physical connection, was impossible.

“Reductionist materialism� is but one solution to the so-called mind-body problem that exercised natural philosophers (“scientists�) in the 17th and 1th centuries. Are mind and body two separate things? If so, which one is primary? An overview of the mind-body problem can be found here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mind%E2%80%93body_problem

Reductionist materialism means that things like astrology or shamanism or channeling or communicating with ancestors get summarily dismissed as “hallucinations� or “superstition.�

The conclusion of the debate (because the scientist made a point of bowing out without offering any counter-argument) came on Jan. 7. Here is the essential part of what I wrote to the scientist:
You made it clear that you consider mind to be an epiphenomenon of neural activity in the brain, and you go on to say: “To me, the mind is a function of a living brain, meaning that they’re not distinct. In my opinion, there can be no mind without some form of complex structure, like a brain.�

In response to your opinion that there can be no mind without some form of complex structure, the obvious question is, why not? I am reminded of the New York Times declaring that a heavier-than-air flying machine was impossible. Your opinion seems to be unscientific, and serves to block skeptical inquiry. It would also seem to be rigidly atheistic (denying the possibility of a transcendent deity), as opposed to a healthy skepticism when approaching questions that appear to be unknowable. Your position regarding belief in witchcraft, denying that it has anything to do with “truth,� also seems to be arbitrarily rigid and unscientific, opposed to a spirit of skeptical inquiry. However, perhaps you wrote hastily and polemically, and perhaps in general you are able to keep an open mind regarding subjects where you are inclined to strongly doubt claims that violate your pre-existing suppositions about reality.

Please keep in mind that, regarding the mind/body problem, there used to be (and still are) several different approaches, as opposed to the mind-numbing reductionist materialist view that is overwhelmingly prevalent today in science departments. Perhaps Leibniz’s approach was the most esoteric, and he was a renowned scientist and mathematician (as well as a philosopher and diplomat). His view was routinely dismissed but never refuted (as far as I am aware), but Leibniz’s influence simply disappeared from universities after protracted tenure battles in the mid-eighteenth century. However, Leibniz’s view isn’t the only possibility. I am intrigued by the thought that both matter and consciousness are manifestations of something underlying, which is not inconsistent with my own view of reality.

It seems to me that reductionist materialism (your stated belief) fails to explain the all-important phenomenon of human creativity, as measured by our ability to reorganize our environment (as a result of scientific discovery and technological progress) to establish a potential population density orders of magnitude above that of a primitive hunter-gatherer society in the same geographical area. (There is an important corollary here: Once a human society exits the Stone Age and begins using metal as a basic part of the production of food and tools, in the long run we must continue to progress or collapse due to resource depletion, especially regarding the need for progressively more efficient sources of energy. And there is another corollary as well: As a society gets more technologically complex, the minimum area for measuring relative potential population density increases.)

Is this human capability explainable in terms of matter reorganizing itself in ever-more-complex fashion? If you answer “yes� to such a question, the subsidiary question is: how does matter organize itself in ever-more-complex ways (such as the creation of human brains that then come up with the technological breakthroughs and social organization to support ever-higher relative potential population densities)? Does random chance work for you as an answer to this question? If so, isn’t that an arbitrary (and therefore unscientific) theological supposition? Or do you see the inherent logic in positing some form of intelligent design (an argument as old as Plato)? If you accept the principle of intelligent design, it seems to me that, to be consistent, the reductionist materialist view would have to posit an immanent (as opposed to transcendent) intelligence, as with the Spinozistic pantheism that influenced Locke’s followers and arguably influenced Locke himself. But if you go in that direction, where is the “universal mind� that is guiding the formation of human brains capable of creative discovery, and how does it communicate with the matter that comprises such brains? The way I see things, both the “deification of random chance� argument and the supposition of an immanent “divine� creative force have insurmountable problems, leaving some sort of transcendent divinity as the default answer regarding the question of the efficient cause of human creativity, with the final cause being the imperative for humans to participate in the ongoing creation of the universe.
The forum thread where this originally appeared is here: https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic ... yqswb4d5WA
"Love is a force in the universe." -- Interstellar

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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KCBS5EtszYI

"Who shall save the human race?"
-- "Wild Goose Chase" https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5L45toPpEv0

"A piece is gonna fall on you..."
-- "All You Zombies" https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=63O_cAclG3A[/i]

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Divine Insight
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Post #2

Post by Divine Insight »

You didn't even say anything in the OP save for your signature line of a quote from Ben Franklin.

However with regard to the question in your thread subtitle:

Reductionist materialism fails to explain human creativity?

Actually evolution by natural selection explains human creativity perfectly well. So your question implying that reductionist materialism fails to explain human creativity is flat out wrong.

And besides, if you're going to support the egotistical jealous God of the Hebrew Bible you are going to have one whale of a lot to answer for. The Bible describes a creator God who couldn't even create so much as a single solitary decent human being. Nary a one.

So that pretty much gives the Biblical God away as being nothing more than a man-made superstition.

So there really is no credible alternative to a reductionist materialistic worldview.

And by the way, if you are demanding explanations you had better first explain how a supposedly creative God came to exist in the first place. You can hardly reject reductionist materialism as failing to explain anything when you can't explain how your imaginary God came to be.

Claiming that other worldviews fail to explain anything is ridiculous when you have no explanation for your own worldview.

Explain how your creative God came to be, any how it is that he couldn't create so much as one single decent human?

If you can't explain that, then you have nothing to debate.
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re-post initial post

Post #3

Post by John Human »

EDIT: It seems that there's a glitch in the system, but maybe this will work now. I'm cutting my post in half; maybe I can post it in two parts.
Divine Insight wrote: You didn't even say anything in the OP save for your signature line of a quote from Ben Franklin.
[snip]
And besides, if you're going to support the egotistical jealous God of the Hebrew Bible you are going to have one whale of a lot to answer for.
Um, we seem to have another case of mistaken identity. If you would like to know where I am really coming from (and perhaps respond), you can see this earlier post on another thread: viewtopic.php?p=955869#955869

I actually wrote a lengthy initial post, but somehow it got blocked, except for my signature. Perhaps because I didn't start off with the proper "debating question" format; I'm rather new around here. Anyway, I'll try to re-post my initial post:

Back in December and January, I had a debate with a scientist at a forum for medieval genealogists, where people routinely ridicule the thought of directly communicating with deceased ancestors. (For an explanation of communicating with ancestors, see https://www.wikitree.com/g2g/535187/com ... -ancestors)

Toward the end of December, a “scientist and engineer� appeared and initiated a debate. For the very first time, somebody actually tried to refute me instead of the usual fare of contempt and insults. This self-identified scientist made it very clear that he dismissed my lengthy stories from ancestors as hallucinations, because of his reductionist materialist presupposition that any such communication at a distance, without some sort of physical connection, was impossible.

“Reductionist materialism� is but one solution to the so-called mind-body problem that exercised natural philosophers (“scientists�) in the 17th and 1th centuries. Are mind and body two separate things? If so, which one is primary? An overview of the mind-body problem can be found here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mind%E2%80%93body_problem

Reductionist materialism means that things like astrology or shamanism or channeling or communicating with ancestors get summarily dismissed as “hallucinations� or “superstition.�

The conclusion of the debate (because the scientist made a point of bowing out without offering any counter-argument) came on Jan. 7. Here is the essential part of what I wrote to the scientist:
You made it clear that you consider mind to be an epiphenomenon of neural activity in the brain, and you go on to say: “To me, the mind is a function of a living brain, meaning that they’re not distinct. In my opinion, there can be no mind without some form of complex structure, like a brain.�

In response to your opinion that there can be no mind without some form of complex structure, the obvious question is, why not? I am reminded of the New York Times declaring that a heavier-than-air flying machine was impossible. Your opinion seems to be unscientific, and serves to block skeptical inquiry. It would also seem to be rigidly atheistic (denying the possibility of a transcendent deity), as opposed to a healthy skepticism when approaching questions that appear to be unknowable. Your position regarding belief in witchcraft, denying that it has anything to do with “truth,� also seems to be arbitrarily rigid and unscientific, opposed to a spirit of skeptical inquiry. However, perhaps you wrote hastily and polemically, and perhaps in general you are able to keep an open mind regarding subjects where you are inclined to strongly doubt claims that violate your pre-existing suppositions about reality.
Last edited by John Human on Sun Mar 10, 2019 7:59 pm, edited 2 times in total.
"Love is a force in the universe." -- Interstellar

"God don't let me lose my nerve" -- "Put Your Lights On"
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KCBS5EtszYI

"Who shall save the human race?"
-- "Wild Goose Chase" https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5L45toPpEv0

"A piece is gonna fall on you..."
-- "All You Zombies" https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=63O_cAclG3A[/i]

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part 2 of initial post

Post #4

Post by John Human »

(debate with a scientist continued, part 2)
Please keep in mind that, regarding the mind/body problem, there used to be (and still are) several different approaches, as opposed to the mind-numbing reductionist materialist view that is overwhelmingly prevalent today in science departments. Perhaps Leibniz’s approach was the most esoteric, and he was a renowned scientist and mathematician (as well as a philosopher and diplomat). His view was routinely dismissed but never refuted (as far as I am aware), but Leibniz’s influence simply disappeared from universities after protracted tenure battles in the mid-eighteenth century. However, Leibniz’s view isn’t the only possibility. I am intrigued by the thought that both matter and consciousness are manifestations of something underlying, which is not inconsistent with my own view of reality.

It seems to me that reductionist materialism (your stated belief) fails to explain the all-important phenomenon of human creativity, as measured by our ability to reorganize our environment (as a result of scientific discovery and technological progress) to establish a potential population density orders of magnitude above that of a primitive hunter-gatherer society in the same geographical area. (There is an important corollary here: Once a human society exits the Stone Age and begins using metal as a basic part of the production of food and tools, in the long run we must continue to progress or collapse due to resource depletion, especially regarding the need for progressively more efficient sources of energy. And there is another corollary as well: As a society gets more technologically complex, the minimum area for measuring relative potential population density increases.)

Is this human capability explainable in terms of matter reorganizing itself in ever-more-complex fashion? If you answer “yes� to such a question, the subsidiary question is: how does matter organize itself in ever-more-complex ways (such as the creation of human brains that then come up with the technological breakthroughs and social organization to support ever-higher relative potential population densities)? Does random chance work for you as an answer to this question? If so, isn’t that an arbitrary (and therefore unscientific) theological supposition? Or do you see the inherent logic in positing some form of intelligent design (an argument as old as Plato)? If you accept the principle of intelligent design, it seems to me that, to be consistent, the reductionist materialist view would have to posit an immanent (as opposed to transcendent) intelligence, as with the Spinozistic pantheism that influenced Locke’s followers and arguably influenced Locke himself. But if you go in that direction, where is the “universal mind� that is guiding the formation of human brains capable of creative discovery, and how does it communicate with the matter that comprises such brains? The way I see things, both the “deification of random chance� argument and the supposition of an immanent “divine� creative force have insurmountable problems, leaving some sort of transcendent divinity as the default answer regarding the question of the efficient cause of human creativity, with the final cause being the imperative for humans to participate in the ongoing creation of the universe.
"Love is a force in the universe." -- Interstellar

"God don't let me lose my nerve" -- "Put Your Lights On"
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KCBS5EtszYI

"Who shall save the human race?"
-- "Wild Goose Chase" https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5L45toPpEv0

"A piece is gonna fall on you..."
-- "All You Zombies" https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=63O_cAclG3A[/i]

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Re: re-post initial post

Post #5

Post by Divine Insight »

John Human wrote: Toward the end of December, a “scientist and engineer� appeared and initiated a debate. For the very first time, somebody actually tried to refute me instead of the usual fare of contempt and insults. This self-identified scientist made it very clear that he dismissed my lengthy stories from ancestors as hallucinations, because of his reductionist materialist presupposition that any such communication at a distance, without some sort of physical connection, was impossible.
To being with, this wouldn't have anything at all to do with your claim that materialism cannot account for creativity.

Secondly, if you believe that you have had contact with ancient ancestors how could you yourself know that this isn't just something your own mind is imagining? Has your communication with ancient ancestors revealed to you anything that you couldn't otherwise know? If so, then you should be able to produce that information thus proving your case. If not, then even you cannot know that your own mind isn't creating these hallucinations. So those kinds of claims are simply not credible.
John Human wrote: Reductionist materialism means that things like astrology or shamanism or channeling or communicating with ancestors get summarily dismissed as “hallucinations� or “superstition.�
And thus far there has never been any credible evidence produced to support these claims. Let's not forget that humans have also reported seeing fairies, ghosts, aliens, and countless gods that, if existed, would violate each other's existence.

So those kinds of claims are indeed most likely nothing more than hallucinations, superstitions, or just plain imagination.

You need to come up with evidence for those types of claims before you can use them to renounce another worldview.

John Human wrote: The conclusion of the debate (because the scientist made a point of bowing out without offering any counter-argument) came on Jan. 7. Here is the essential part of what I wrote to the scientist:

You made it clear that you consider mind to be an epiphenomenon of neural activity in the brain, and you go on to say: “To me, the mind is a function of a living brain, meaning that they’re not distinct. In my opinion, there can be no mind without some form of complex structure, like a brain.�

In response to your opinion that there can be no mind without some form of complex structure, the obvious question is, why not? I am reminded of the New York Times declaring that a heavier-than-air flying machine was impossible. Your opinion seems to be unscientific, and serves to block skeptical inquiry. It would also seem to be rigidly atheistic (denying the possibility of a transcendent deity), as opposed to a healthy skepticism when approaching questions that appear to be unknowable. Your position regarding belief in witchcraft, denying that it has anything to do with “truth,� also seems to be arbitrarily rigid and unscientific, opposed to a spirit of skeptical inquiry. However, perhaps you wrote hastily and polemically, and perhaps in general you are able to keep an open mind regarding subjects where you are inclined to strongly doubt claims that violate your pre-existing suppositions about reality.
I'm not concerned with the personal opinions of someone you might have spoken to who claims to be (or even is) a scientist.

Your I responded to your question in the subtitle of this thread:

Reductionist materialism fails to explain human creativity?

No, it does not fail to explain this. To the contrary it explains it perfectly. Evolution by natural selection explains it perfectly. If we as humans hadn't been creative we wouldn't currently be at the top of the food chain. It's that simple.

Without tools, language and the ability to create new plans, we wouldn't have survived. So evolution explains how creativity is a natural result of the evolutionary process.

All your other concerns are nothing more than distractions from this initial question. And neither have you shown where any of your other concerns have any validity either.

If you claim to be in contact with dead people you should be able to produce evidence to demonstrate the truth of that communication. Thus far no one who has ever claimed to have been in contact with a dead person has been able to demonstrate the truth of that claim.

Until that happens, you have nothing but empty claims of your own.
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Re: re-post initial post

Post #6

Post by rikuoamero »

[Replying to post 3 by John Human]
I actually wrote a lengthy initial post, but somehow it got blocked, except for my signature. Perhaps because I didn't start off with the proper "debating question" format; I'm rather new around here. Anyway, I'll try to re-post my initial post:
It happens from time to time, even to long-timers such as myself. Most recently, it happened to me when I had the temerity to put three links in a post. I'm pretty sure it's not a deliberate thing that happens, just something to do with the website's coding.

Anyway, the problem with your question, the analogy of the heavier-than-air flying machine (which is one I myself have used several times, ironically enough, when debating young-earth creationists), is that at no point do you (or those like you) propose a mechanism for how the mind is able to operate sans a physical brain. You may have seen this approach from me on a relatively recent thread that talked about out-of-body/near-death experiences. I asked how people were able to see given that the claim is that they are not using their body, their physical eyes, and therefore, their claim is nonsensical since without physical eyes to react to photons, they would be blind.
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Re: re-post initial post

Post #7

Post by John Human »

rikuoamero wrote: Anyway, the problem with your question, the analogy of the heavier-than-air flying machine (which is one I myself have used several times, ironically enough, when debating young-earth creationists), is that at no point do you (or those like you) propose a mechanism for how the mind is able to operate sans a physical brain.
I'm not sure why you place such importance on the "lack of a mechanism"; perhaps you could explain.

I am reminded of an old fellow named Erasmus Darwin, who proposed a theory of evolution. The problem was, he didn't propose a mechanism for how evolution works, so his theory did not win general acceptance. Later on, he had a grandson named Charles, who passed some quality time in the Galapagos Islands, etc. Charles Darwin proposed "natural selection" as the "mechanism" for the theory of evolution, and this led to widespread acceptance of his grandfather's theory, until its (temporary) eclipse due to the dearth of "missing-link" evidence from the fossil record.

My point here is that the proposal of a hypothetical mechanism made the difference enabling "put-it-in-the-textbooks" general acceptance of the theory of evolution. Is widespread acceptance an important criterion for assessing the validity of a scientific theory? Was Erasmus Darwin "wrong" because his theory of evolution wasn't accepted?

Beyond that, it seems to me that "natural selection" equates with the deification of random chance, as a self-contradictory explanation of ever-higher complexity in the ordering of the biosphere. To my nose, that one just doesn't pass the smell test. My preferred alternative is the original Platonic hypothesis of "intelligent design," without insisting on Christian suppositions about the nature of the "author of our existence".

EDIT: @Divine Insight, in your earlier post, you brought up a couple points well worth addressing. I'll get to it, as time permits.
"Love is a force in the universe." -- Interstellar

"God don't let me lose my nerve" -- "Put Your Lights On"
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KCBS5EtszYI

"Who shall save the human race?"
-- "Wild Goose Chase" https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5L45toPpEv0

"A piece is gonna fall on you..."
-- "All You Zombies" https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=63O_cAclG3A[/i]

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Re: re-post initial post

Post #8

Post by rikuoamero »

[Replying to post 7 by John Human]
I'm not sure why you place such importance on the "lack of a mechanism"; perhaps you could explain.
Simple. Let's revisit what you say in your heavier-than-air vehicle analogy. I didn't read the NYT article you allude to (you didn't link it, so I'm not going to comment on what you allege they said, but for the sake of argument, I'm going to take what you claim they said as a fait accompli). You said that a claim like this blocks scientific progress, to which I would agree.
Thing is, I say the same thing regarding flying vehicles but for a different reason. When it comes to mind/body duality, to life itself, Christians and creationists in particular tend to say that this thing called God did it. They don't propose a mechanism, just this three letter word which is frustratingly ill defined. If one wants to propose a Chinese scientist meddled with the genomes of some human babies (as has supposedly happened a few months ago), such a thing can be defined and analysed. One can look for a lab where the supposed experimentation took place. One can see if the scientist had an education in genetics, if he had a staff, funding, equipment etc.
However, when it comes to what is supposedly possible only with a "God", and not via naturalism...none of that defining or analysing takes place. What is this "God" thing? Some people over here say its a trinitarian entity, while some other people over there say it's not. How did it influence life, create life? No methods are proposed, no equipment, nothing at all. Just "Goddidit". Simple language might be used, such as the following lifted straight from Answers in Genesis
"The account of origins presented in Genesis is a simple but factual presentation of actual events and therefore provides a reliable framework for scientific research into the question of the origin and history of life, mankind, the earth, and the universe.
The various original life forms (kinds), including mankind, were made by direct creative acts of God. The living descendants of any of the original kinds (apart from man) may represent more than one species today, reflecting the genetic potential within the original kind. Only limited biological changes (including mutational deterioration) have occurred naturally within each kind since creation."

When I say to Creationists they don't have a method, noting at all going on behind the phrase "Goddidit", I mean precisely that. There's nothing. No explanation, no new knowledge. No information. They don't define their terms, they don't explain anything, and yet they have the temerity to say that if a materialist/atheist/skeptic cannot come up with an account for the origin of life, then Goddidit stands as a perfectly reasonable viable explanation by sheer automagic default.

The same thing goes for your claim that a mind can exist without a brain. You're doing as the NYT writer did for heavier-than-air flying vehicles but from the opposite direction. That writer said they were impossible and that meant all scientific progress and investigation was now closed.
Your approach though is to say minds sans brains is possible...but (at least from what you have posted so far in this thread) without evidence. So far, your only attempt to even come close to backing up your claim is to use the analogy of the NYT writer, which doesn't actually work.
In the threads that talked about OOB/NDEs, ideas such as yours were expressed, but no actual scientific investigation was taking place. People were posting ideas like "there was a silver coloured cord I saw during my OOB experience and that maybe this is how information got from my spiritual eyes to my brain, such that I could remember it upon waking" (this is a paraphase of mine, not an actual quote), but note that nothing scientific was actually being done. No-one arguing in favour of OOB experiences could propose an actual viable mechanism for how such experiences could even take place. These people were saying they were able to see things, similar to or even superior to actual physical eyesight, despite the fact they were (according to them) without any kind of physical sensory organs that reacted to physical phenomena, like how our eyes react to photons of light. They had no explanation.
Nothing at all.
Thus their own claims, despite being a positive that something had happened, fall short, but from the opposite direction of your NYT writer.

In short, if you want to posit minds that are without brains of some sort, you need to do better than merely claim that a NYT writer was wrong about how heavier-than-air flying vehicles were impossible. Yeah, that guy was wrong, you won't get a disagreement from me...but the reason you and I say he was wrong is because he was eventually disproved. People proposed mechanisms for such vehicles, tried them out and showed that they work, conclusively.
Not the case with people such as yourself, who propose a mind without a body. All I've ever seen in support of this idea is a lot of hand-waving and stamping feet demanding that it be taken seriously...but no actual results.
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Some force seems to restrict me from buying into the apparent nonsense that others find so easy to buy into. Having no religious or supernatural beliefs of my own, I just call that force reason. -- Tired of the Nonsense

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Erasmus Darwin : no mechanism for evolution

Post #9

Post by John Human »

rikuoamero wrote: [Replying to post 7 by John Human]
I'm not sure why you place such importance on the "lack of a mechanism"; perhaps you could explain.
[snip] When I say to Creationists they don't have a method, noting at all going on behind the phrase "Goddidit", I mean precisely that. There's nothing. No explanation, no new knowledge. No information....
You ignored the example that I attached to the question of "mechanism," and embarked on a long (but interesting and worthwhile in itself) digression about so-called Creation Science. You also brought up other discussion that is worth answering, but I really think the example of Erasmus Darwin deserves attention, so I'll repeat my earlier two questions (highlighted below), in their proper context:

I'm not sure why you place such importance on the "lack of a mechanism"; perhaps you could explain. I am reminded of an old fellow named Erasmus Darwin, who proposed a theory of evolution. The problem was, he didn't propose a mechanism for how evolution works, so his theory did not win general acceptance. Later on, he had a grandson named Charles, who passed some quality time in the Galapagos Islands, etc. Charles Darwin proposed "natural selection" as the "mechanism" for the theory of evolution, and this led to widespread acceptance of his grandfather's theory, until its (temporary) eclipse due to the dearth of "missing-link" evidence from the fossil record.

My point here is that the proposal of a hypothetical mechanism made the difference enabling "put-it-in-the-textbooks" general acceptance of the theory of evolution. Is widespread acceptance an important criterion for assessing the validity of a scientific theory? Was Erasmus Darwin "wrong" because his theory of evolution wasn't accepted?

I really hope you'll be willing to discuss those two questions about Erasmus Darwin's lack of a mechanism, so we can proceed to a reasoned discussion of what I have actually put forth. As an aside, regarding "creation science," my approach is as follows:

1. Creation Science follows from the supposition that the Bible, interpreted literally, is infallible.

2. If there is good reason to doubt a "literal infallible" approach to assessing the content of the Bible, then there is no reason to take Creation Science seriously, except as an example of feel-good thought control for "true believers."

3. As I've pointed out more than once around here, Jesus (as told in the Bible) never said (a) that humans are condemned to eternal damnation because of our participation in "original sin"; (b) that Jesus was conceived by means of the Holy Spirit entering the womb of Mary; and (c) that divine Jesus's sacrifice on the cross enables true believers to escape from eternal damnation. These three doctrines are interlocking: if you take away one of them, the other two become meaningless in the Christian scheme of things. To me it seems obvious that they were fabricated later (although conceivably with divine inspiration), which in my mind demolishes the "literal infallible" approach to interpreting the Bible, which in turn leads me to reject "Creation Science" without further thought
"Love is a force in the universe." -- Interstellar

"God don't let me lose my nerve" -- "Put Your Lights On"
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KCBS5EtszYI

"Who shall save the human race?"
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DrNoGods
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Re: Erasmus Darwin : no mechanism for evolution

Post #10

Post by DrNoGods »

[Replying to post 9 by John Human]
I'm not sure why you place such importance on the "lack of a mechanism"; perhaps you could explain. I am reminded of an old fellow named Erasmus Darwin, who proposed a theory of evolution. The problem was, he didn't propose a mechanism for how evolution works, so his theory did not win general acceptance. Later on, he had a grandson named Charles, who passed some quality time in the Galapagos Islands, etc. Charles Darwin proposed "natural selection" as the "mechanism" for the theory of evolution, and this led to widespread acceptance of his grandfather's theory, until its (temporary) eclipse due to the dearth of "missing-link" evidence from the fossil record.
You are grossly simplifying the situation with acceptance of Darwinian (Charles) evolution. Similar concepts had been floating around before and during Darwin's (Charles) time, but the primary reason his version became accepted is that he backed up his mechanistic idea (ie. natural selection) with extensive observations. Then he organized these observations into peer-reviewed science papers and eventually into his famous book On the Origin of Species, which laid out the big picture and explained how natural selection worked. Subsequent observations and other work eventually led to his hypotheses reaching the status of theory.

When that book was published in late 1859, I believe that no human fossils had ever been found (or rather, fossils that were known to be Homo at the time). There was virtually nothing known about DNA or genes, how the genetic code worked, etc. So it is not at all surprising that evolution (like any other theory) has been refined over the years as new information becomes available. But as of yet, it remains the best and most consistent theory of how life diversified (and continues to do so) on this planet, despite many modifications since 1859 (eg. punctuated equilibrium and other ideas). It has been confirmed over and over again to be correct.

You seem to be describing it as if Erasmus threw out the idea in his "The Laws of Organic Life", but offered up no mechanism, so was ignored, then Charles came along and added a mechanism and suddenly everyone bought into it without any further thought or investigation of the mechanism and it ended up in text books. That is not at all how it happened, and simply having widespread acceptance is not a criterion for validity of any scientific theory. It must be supported by solid evidence, with the usual requirements for reproducibility, confirmations, etc. If the result of that process is widespread acceptance then it ends up in text books, and if the information is later shown to be wrong in some aspect (or completely ... this happens as well) then it gets removed from the text books. Science is not a static process. Iif Erasmus was only partially right that's fine. His general idea was ultimately supported by observations, and a mechanism proposed, and it took another step from hypothesis to theory where it stands today based on a large body of evidence and many refinements over the decades.
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