Recently I've noticed that some apologists like William Lane Craig are using mathematics-based arguments to assure us that the Christian god exists. I would like to explain why those arguments use poor logic.
A very broad argument is that mathematics in general seems to explain the cosmos in a way that seems to work unreasonably well. An intelligent designer like Yahweh is then required to explain this apparent mathematical basis for the universe. He is "the great mathematician in the sky."
Not really. The reason math works so well to explain the world--in at least some cases--is because we humans created math to describe the cosmos. There is no mystery here. We are the mathematicians describing the universe.
Also, many apologists like to wow us with enormously improbable events that they say cannot be attributed to chance. Since chance is ruled out, "God musta done it."
Wrong again. The only probability that rules out an event happening by chance is an event with a probability of zero. Extremely improbable events--like the conception of any of us--happen all the time.
Also, to state how improbable a natural event might be doesn't say much if you don't know the probability of an alternate event. So if apologists wish to argue that an event like the apparent fine-tuning of the universe by chance is only one out a a gazillion, they must compare that probability to the probability that "God musta done it." If they cannot say that the probability of God fine-tuning the cosmos is greater than chance, then they haven't proved anything.
Finally, a really laughable argument is that the universe cannot be infinitely old because if it was infinitely we could never have reached the present! Such apologists must have slept through their high-school algebra. Consider the number line with numbers increasing infinitely with positive numbers to the right and negative numbers to the left. All you need to do is have any point on that line represent a moment in time with zero being the present, points on the positive direction are the future, and points on the negative direction are the past. See that? You're at 0 (the present), but the past is infinite. You can go back as far as you want to with no limit.
I can go on, but for now let me ask the...
Question for Debate: Are apologists sloppy mathematicians, or are they deliberately trying to deceive people with numbers?
Bad Math Used in Apologetics
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Re: Bad Math Used in Apologetics
Post #201All of the data/observations we have; is based upon the observational FACT that dogs produce dogs, cats produce cats, fish produce fish.brunumb wrote: On the one hand we have millions of pages from countless known sources with data and observations all converging on the conclusion that is the theory of evolution.
Anything beyond that is pure naturalistic speculation.
"They (each animal) will bring forth after its kind". Translation? "Dogs will produce dogs, cats will produce cats, fish will produce fish".brunumb wrote: On the other hand we have a few paragraphs in an ancient collection of fanciful tales from anonymous authors saying that a magical being made it all.
Have you ever seen any exception to this? No, you haven't.
Yeah and creationism doesn't have a methodology that is based upon observation, either. Science does.brunumb wrote: Nothing about creation passes any so-called eyeball test and it doesn't even pass muster in any credibility test.
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Re: Bad Math Used in Apologetics
Post #202[Replying to post 200 by For_The_Kingdom]
All of our observations lead inexorably to the theory of evolution as accounting for the diversity of life on our planet. There is absolutely nothing to show that a magical being had anything to do with it.
So says the anonymous author of a book of fantastic tales who could not have observed anything that takes countless human generations to occur. At the same time the author could not have observed the initial creation of any of those animals either. It's all just an imaginary concoction by ignorant people trying to explain the world around them."They (each animal) will bring forth after its kind". Translation? "Dogs will produce dogs, cats will produce cats, fish will produce fish".
"Observation is the active acquisition of information from a primary source. In living beings, observation employs the senses. In science, observation can also involve the recording of data via the use of scientific instruments. The term may also refer to any data collected during the scientific activity."Yeah and creationism doesn't have a methodology that is based upon observation, either. Science does.
All of our observations lead inexorably to the theory of evolution as accounting for the diversity of life on our planet. There is absolutely nothing to show that a magical being had anything to do with it.
George Orwell:: “The further a society drifts from the truth, the more it will hate those who speak it.”
Voltaire: "Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities."
Gender ideology is anti-science, anti truth.
Voltaire: "Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities."
Gender ideology is anti-science, anti truth.
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Re: Bad Math Used in Apologetics
Post #203By the time the book (Genesis) was written, "countless" of human generations had occurred..but the fact of the matter still remained; dogs produce dogs, cats/cats, fish/fish.brunumb wrote: [Replying to post 200 by For_The_Kingdom]
So says the anonymous author of a book of fantastic tales who could not have observed anything that takes countless human generations to occur."They (each animal) will bring forth after its kind". Translation? "Dogs will produce dogs, cats will produce cats, fish will produce fish".
With no observable exceptions to the rule.
Neither could naturalists, but that don't stop them from believing in abiogenesis.brunumb wrote: At the same time the author could not have observed the initial creation of any of those animals either.
Genetic fallacy.brunumb wrote: It's all just an imaginary concoction by ignorant people trying to explain the world around them.
Cool. And I am saying the "data collected during any x-scientific activity" does not lead me to believe that a reptile evolved into a bird some x-million years ago.brunumb wrote: "Observation is the active acquisition of information from a primary source. In living beings, observation employs the senses. In science, observation can also involve the recording of data via the use of scientific instruments. The term may also refer to any data collected during the scientific activity."
I simply disagree. Dogs produce dogs, cats/cats, fish/fish. If there is any exception to this, I haven't seen it yet.brunumb wrote: All of our observations lead inexorably to the theory of evolution as accounting for the diversity of life on our planet.
Well, I don't see the evidence that the animals of yesterday were able to do things that the animals of today have NEVER been observed to do.brunumb wrote: There is absolutely nothing to show that a magical being had anything to do with it.
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Re: Bad Math Used in Apologetics
Post #204For_The_Kingdom wrote:By the time the book (Genesis) was written, "countless" of human generations had occurred..but the fact of the matter still remained; dogs produce dogs, cats/cats, fish/fish.brunumb wrote: [Replying to post 200 by For_The_Kingdom]
So says the anonymous author of a book of fantastic tales who could not have observed anything that takes countless human generations to occur."They (each animal) will bring forth after its kind". Translation? "Dogs will produce dogs, cats will produce cats, fish will produce fish".
With no observable exceptions to the rule.
Neither could naturalists, but that don't stop them from believing in abiogenesis.brunumb wrote: At the same time the author could not have observed the initial creation of any of those animals either.
Genetic fallacy.brunumb wrote: It's all just an imaginary concoction by ignorant people trying to explain the world around them.
Cool. And I am saying the "data collected during any x-scientific activity" does not lead me to believe that a reptile evolved into a bird some x-million years ago.brunumb wrote: "Observation is the active acquisition of information from a primary source. In living beings, observation employs the senses. In science, observation can also involve the recording of data via the use of scientific instruments. The term may also refer to any data collected during the scientific activity."
I simply disagree. Dogs produce dogs, cats/cats, fish/fish. If there is any exception to this, I haven't seen it yet.brunumb wrote: All of our observations lead inexorably to the theory of evolution as accounting for the diversity of life on our planet.
Well, I don't see the evidence that the animals of yesterday were able to do things that the animals of today have NEVER been observed to do.brunumb wrote: There is absolutely nothing to show that a magical being had anything to do with it.
"It is forbidden to kill; therefore all murderers are punished unless they kill in large numbers and to the sound of trumpets."
"Properly read, the Bible is the most potent force for atheism ever conceived."
"God is a insignificant nobody. He is so unimportant that no one would even know he exists if evolution had not made possible for animals capable of abstract thought to exist and invent him"
"Two hands working can do more than a thousand clasped in prayer."
"Properly read, the Bible is the most potent force for atheism ever conceived."
"God is a insignificant nobody. He is so unimportant that no one would even know he exists if evolution had not made possible for animals capable of abstract thought to exist and invent him"
"Two hands working can do more than a thousand clasped in prayer."
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Re: Bad Math Used in Apologetics
Post #205For_The_Kingdom wrote:By the time the book (Genesis) was written, "countless" of human generations had occurred..but the fact of the matter still remained; dogs produce dogs, cats/cats, fish/fish.brunumb wrote: [Replying to post 200 by For_The_Kingdom]
So says the anonymous author of a book of fantastic tales who could not have observed anything that takes countless human generations to occur."They (each animal) will bring forth after its kind". Translation? "Dogs will produce dogs, cats will produce cats, fish will produce fish".
With no observable exceptions to the rule.
Neither could naturalists, but that don't stop them from believing in abiogenesis.brunumb wrote: At the same time the author could not have observed the initial creation of any of those animals either.
Genetic fallacy.brunumb wrote: It's all just an imaginary concoction by ignorant people trying to explain the world around them.
Cool. And I am saying the "data collected during any x-scientific activity" does not lead me to believe that a reptile evolved into a bird some x-million years ago.brunumb wrote: "Observation is the active acquisition of information from a primary source. In living beings, observation employs the senses. In science, observation can also involve the recording of data via the use of scientific instruments. The term may also refer to any data collected during the scientific activity."
I simply disagree. Dogs produce dogs, cats/cats, fish/fish. If there is any exception to this, I haven't seen it yet.brunumb wrote: All of our observations lead inexorably to the theory of evolution as accounting for the diversity of life on our planet.
Well, I don't see the evidence that the animals of yesterday were able to do things that the animals of today have NEVER been observed to do.brunumb wrote: There is absolutely nothing to show that a magical being had anything to do with it.
So you didn't witness/observed the evolution of reptile into birds. So what? ))
It does not mean it did not happened.
You did not witness or observed that Yahweh created the universe, yet you still believe this to be true.
No human can observe an event that takes millions of years for a human lives only a few decades.
I don't why do you keep insisting with this nonsensical idea of yours.
Maybe you are just trolling.
"It is forbidden to kill; therefore all murderers are punished unless they kill in large numbers and to the sound of trumpets."
"Properly read, the Bible is the most potent force for atheism ever conceived."
"God is a insignificant nobody. He is so unimportant that no one would even know he exists if evolution had not made possible for animals capable of abstract thought to exist and invent him"
"Two hands working can do more than a thousand clasped in prayer."
"Properly read, the Bible is the most potent force for atheism ever conceived."
"God is a insignificant nobody. He is so unimportant that no one would even know he exists if evolution had not made possible for animals capable of abstract thought to exist and invent him"
"Two hands working can do more than a thousand clasped in prayer."
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Re: Bad Math Used in Apologetics
Post #206No, it doesn't mean that it didn't happen. But when I don't see any convincing evidence for it, and at the same time see convincing evidence against it..alexxcJRO wrote:
So you didn't witness/observed the evolution of reptile into birds. So what? ))
It does not mean it did not happened.
That is enough to conclude (at least for me) that it didn't happen. I am open to the evidence, because believing in evolution does not negate the existence of God anyway.
I just simply demand convincing evidence and no, I don't have to accept what the guy in the white lab coat tells me...just like you don't have to accept what the preacher in the pulpit tells you.
True, but again; my belief in Yahweh isn't based on a methodology which is based upon OBSERVATION.alexxcJRO wrote: You did not witness or observed that Yahweh created the universe, yet you still believe this to be true.
Look everyone; the ole "given enough time, anything can happen" routine.alexxcJRO wrote: No human can observe an event that takes millions of years for a human lives only a few decades.
Me? A troll? Nawww. Seriously...naw.alexxcJRO wrote: I don't why do you keep insisting with this nonsensical idea of yours.
Maybe you are just trolling.
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Re: Bad Math Used in Apologetics
Post #207Common sir.For_The_Kingdom wrote: No, it doesn't mean that it didn't happen. But when I don't see any convincing evidence for it, and at the same time see convincing evidenceagainst it..
That is enough to conclude (at least for me) that it didn't happen. I am open to the evidence, because believing in evolution does not negate the existence of God anyway.
I just simply demand convincing evidence and no, I don't have to accept what the guy in the white lab coat tells me...just like you don't have to accept what the preacher in the pulpit tells you.
Look everyone; the ole "given enough time, anything can happen" routine
You are just embarrassing yourself demanding direct evidence(“eyeball test�) for an event that takes millions of years. )
Please do not straw-man. It looks really bad.For_The_Kingdom wrote: True, but again; my belief in Yahweh isn't based on a methodology which is based upon OBSERVATION.
Me? A troll? Nawww. Seriously...naw.
I specifically talked about a specific thing, mostly the creation of the universe by Yahweh, not your overall belief in Yahweh.
Nor you nor any human has observed the creation of the universe by Yahweh. There is no direct evidence (“eyeball test�) for this supposed event.
So it’s kind of hypocritical, dishonest, comical and illogical that way you behave, arrogantly dismissing an event that takes millions of years because there is no direct evidence(which is impossible) while believing yourself that an event happened without any direct evidence.
The comedy is beyond imagination.
So it’s either a case of extreme trolling or a case of extreme , chronic stupidity.
Take your pick.
"It is forbidden to kill; therefore all murderers are punished unless they kill in large numbers and to the sound of trumpets."
"Properly read, the Bible is the most potent force for atheism ever conceived."
"God is a insignificant nobody. He is so unimportant that no one would even know he exists if evolution had not made possible for animals capable of abstract thought to exist and invent him"
"Two hands working can do more than a thousand clasped in prayer."
"Properly read, the Bible is the most potent force for atheism ever conceived."
"God is a insignificant nobody. He is so unimportant that no one would even know he exists if evolution had not made possible for animals capable of abstract thought to exist and invent him"
"Two hands working can do more than a thousand clasped in prayer."
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Re: Bad Math Used in Apologetics
Post #208Direct evidence/Indirect evidence...doesn't matter...the evidence is lacking either way. Second, "it takes millions of years" is begging the question. Prove that it happened in the first place before you start talking about how long it takes to happen.alexxcJRO wrote: Common sir.
You are just embarrassing yourself demanding direct evidence(“eyeball test�) for an event that takes millions of years. )
Cart before the horse fallacy.
Did you not understand what I said? I said; my belief in Yahweh is NOT based upon observation, by my belief in science/nature IS based on observation (along with experiment, and prediction).alexxcJRO wrote:
Please do not straw-man. It looks really bad.
I specifically talked about a specific thing, mostly the creation of the universe by Yahweh, not your overall belief in Yahweh.
Nor you nor any human has observed the creation of the universe by Yahweh. There is no direct evidence (“eyeball test�) for this supposed event.
The methodology is different. Now, I don't know what part of that you don't understand, but certainly no straw man was committed so I don't know what you are talking about.
I have convincing evidence that there must be a God. Point blank, period. No, the evidence is not "direct", but no one is claiming that it is.alexxcJRO wrote: So it’s kind of hypocritical, dishonest, comical and illogical that way you behave, arrogantly dismissing an event that takes millions of years because there is no direct evidence(which is impossible) while believing yourself that an event happened without any direct evidence.
I have evidence for the existence of God, and no evidence against the existence of God...enough for me to conclude; God must exist.
My evidence can always be debunked, and if you feel you can do so...no one is stopping you.
Second, again; "given enough time, anything can happen" is simply a con. Ok, I will pay that game, too...
"Given enough time, there will exist a supernatural being who will create the universe".
There, given enough time, anything can happen. I can play that game too.
I will take chronic stupidityalexxcJRO wrote: The comedy is beyond imagination.
So it’s either a case of extreme trolling or a case of extreme , chronic stupidity.
Take your pick.
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Re: Bad Math Used in Apologetics
Post #209For_The_Kingdom wrote: Direct evidence/Indirect evidence...doesn't matter...the evidence is lacking either way. Second, "it takes millions of years" is begging the question. Prove that it happened in the first place before you start talking about how long it takes to happen.
Cart before the horse fallacy.
Second, again; "given enough time, anything can happen" is simply a con. Ok, I will pay that game, too...
"Given enough time, there will exist a supernatural being who will create the universe".
There, given enough time, anything can happen. I can play that game too.
But sir it's irrelevant to my argument if evolution happened or not.
Let's admit for sake of argument that it did not happened.
One brings forth the hypothesis that "over millions of years the reptiles evolved into birds".
What you are doing is still moronic/dishonest, asking for direct evidence("eyeball test") for an proposed event that it supposed to take millions of years.
Your correct to ask for evidence for a claim/hypothesis but to ask for evidence that can't be brought forth is just stupid/dishonest.
It's like one makes the claim: "a deist god exists".
And you come and demand a specific kind of evidence: “that God intervenes in the universe, in human affairs.�
That sir is stupid/dishonest for the hypothesis is that: "a deist god does not intervene in the universe, in human affairs.�
Here a dialog to be better show the chronic stupidity:
One man: A deist god exist.
You: Do you have evidence that this god cures people, punishes others, brings calamities upon others?
The man: No because it is indifferent to what happens, does not care.
You: Haha, then I do not believe it does exist.
Q: Isn't that just plainly stupid, huh?
I misunderstood "isn’t based" with "is based".For_The_Kingdom wrote: Did you not understand what I said? I said; my belief in Yahweh is NOT based upon observation, by my belief in science/nature IS based on observation (along with experiment, and prediction).
The methodology is different. Now, I don't know what part of that you don't understand, but certainly no straw man was committed so I don't know what you are talking about.
My mistake.
Still.
Q: Why make a special case for God?
Q: Why then do you need direct evidence("eyeball test") for evolution but not for God? Why the inconsistency? Is your God not a personal one, one that has a personal relationship with humans, one that intervenes in the universe: listens to prayer, heals humans, bring calamities over others and so one? Can you not make experiments to prove God’s interventions in the universe? Can you not ask God for direct evidence(“eye ball test�)?
"It is forbidden to kill; therefore all murderers are punished unless they kill in large numbers and to the sound of trumpets."
"Properly read, the Bible is the most potent force for atheism ever conceived."
"God is a insignificant nobody. He is so unimportant that no one would even know he exists if evolution had not made possible for animals capable of abstract thought to exist and invent him"
"Two hands working can do more than a thousand clasped in prayer."
"Properly read, the Bible is the most potent force for atheism ever conceived."
"God is a insignificant nobody. He is so unimportant that no one would even know he exists if evolution had not made possible for animals capable of abstract thought to exist and invent him"
"Two hands working can do more than a thousand clasped in prayer."
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Re: Bad Math Used in Apologetics
Post #210I thought that was kinda the discussion..alexxcJRO wrote:
But sir it's irrelevant to my argument if evolution happened or not.
I'm always down for that.alexxcJRO wrote: Let's admit for sake of argument that it did not happened.
Bringing forth the hypothesis that reptiles evolved into birds, would contradict admitting for sake of argument that evolution did not happen.alexxcJRO wrote: One brings forth the hypothesis that "over millions of years the reptiles evolved into birds".
Show me evidence that it occurred at all before we talk about how long it takes to occur.alexxcJRO wrote: What you are doing is still moronic/dishonest, asking for direct evidence("eyeball test") for an proposed event that it supposed to take millions of years.
Dogs produce dogs, cats/cats, snakes/snakes. I don't see any evidence contrary to these observations...and if you have evidence, I am here.alexxcJRO wrote: Your correct to ask for evidence for a claim/hypothesis but to ask for evidence that can't be brought forth is just stupid/dishonest.
Um, no. I would ask for evidence that God exists at all, before I go about asking whether or not this yet to be proven God gets involved in human affairs.alexxcJRO wrote: It's like one makes the claim: "a deist god exists".
And you come and demand a specific kind of evidence: “that God intervenes in the universe, in human affairs.�
See how that works? I don't put the cart before the horse. That is how we (Christian apologists) actually do apologetics...we build a cumulative case for Christian theism..first, we prove that God exists...and THEN we prove how/why we believe that this recently proved God has revealed himself in Jesus Christ.
See how that works?
All of that is irrelevant, considering your analogy does not mirror how I think/operate. So, your analogy was useless and a waste of time; is what I am trying to say.alexxcJRO wrote: That sir is stupid/dishonest for the hypothesis is that: "a deist god does not intervene in the universe, in human affairs.�
Here a dialog to be better show the chronic stupidity:
One man: A deist god exist.
You: Do you have evidence that this god cures people, punishes others, brings calamities upon others?
The man: No because it is indifferent to what happens, does not care.
You: Haha, then I do not believe it does exist.
Q: Isn't that just plainly stupid, huh?
*Sigh* It isn't an inconsistency, it is a different methodology altogether (3rd time saying it).alexxcJRO wrote: Still.
Q: Why make a special case for God?
Q: Why then do you need direct evidence("eyeball test") for evolution but not for God? Why the inconsistency?
Yup. Fits the bill.alexxcJRO wrote: Is your God not a personal one, one that has a personal relationship with humans, one that intervenes in the universe: listens to prayer, heals humans, bring calamities over others and so one?
I have what I believe to be convincing evidence that God exists, which is more than I can say about evolution.alexxcJRO wrote: Can you not make experiments to prove God’s interventions in the universe? Can you not ask God for direct evidence(“eye ball test�)?