Is there meaning in the Lord's Prayer?

[marco]

We are told that Jesus recommended a format of address to God. If we examine it carefully, what do we find?

The prayer is composed of direct commands:
Give us! Forgive us! Lead us not! Deliver us!

and commands in the subjunctive mood:


"Let your name be holy; let your kingdom come; let your will be done."


The direct commands mean very little: we get from life what life gives, regardless of whether we address God or not. It is highly unlikely that reciters of the prayer ever find themselves " delivered from evil". They prayed in war time and war continued.

The appeals for God's name to be holy, and for his will to be done as conscientiously on Earth as it is in heaven - are pretty pieces of meaningless poetry.

The same results would have been achieved had Jesus simply offered:

Dear God, I love you a lot. Thanks.

Does the prayer turn folk into reciters of empty words?

If we believe in God, is there a better way of addressing him?

[JehovahsWitness]

HALLOWED BE YOUR NAME

Hallowed means "worshipped, revered, recognition of holiness".

So, this is praise. May the holiness of your name ever be recognized
and proclaimed.

So here we have an explananation of the expression "hallowed be thy name" without a single mention of WHAT that name is.





JEHOVAHS WITNESS



RELATED POSTS

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http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 602#961602

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http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 429#828429

Go to other posts related to GOD , THE DIVINE NAME and .... THE BIBLE

[De Maria]

HALLOWED BE YOUR NAME

Hallowed means "worshipped, revered, recognition of holiness".

So, this is praise. May the holiness of your name ever be recognized
and proclaimed.

An explananation of the expression "hallowed be thy name" without a single mention of WHAT that name is.

JEHOVAHS WITNESS

Because everyone present knew His name. Yahweh.

[JehovahsWitness]

[Replying to post 22 by De Maria]

Well if everyone "hallowed" God's name by doing what you just did and not mention it, it would take just one generation for that to no longer be the case, wouldn't it. But don't worry, God still has people that will actually say what Gods wonderful and most glorious name is. Out loud.





JEHOVAHS WITNESSES

[De Maria]

And why are the Jews(Israelites ) not part of this??

Hm? Don't you realize that He is speaking to Jews?

It is their God, so to speak...

Most of the Jews converted. But some didn't. Scripture itself says:

John 1:9 The true light that gives light to everyone was coming into the world. 10 He was in the world, and though the world was made through him, the world did not recognize him. 11 He came to that which was his own, but his own did not receive him. 12 Yet to all who did receive him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God— 13 children born not of natural descent, nor of human decision or a husband’s will, but born of God.

And then again:

Acts 13:45 When the Jews saw the crowds, they were filled with jealousy. They began to contradict what Paul was saying and heaped abuse on him. 46 Then Paul and Barnabas answered them boldly: “We had to speak the word of God to you first. Since you reject it and do not consider yourselves worthy of eternal life, we now turn to the Gentiles.

[De Maria]

[Replying to post 22 by De Maria]

Well if everyone "hallowed" God's name by doing what you just did and not mention it, it would take just one generation for that to no longer be the case, wouldn't it.
But don't worry, God still has people that will actually say what Gods wonderful and most glorious name is. Out loud.

JEHOVAHS WITNESSES

I'm not worried. I think your zeal is a bit misplaced, though. You calling God by his name places you outside of His home. We call God, Abba, because we are His children. Think about it. When children are born, they don't know their father's name. They will call him, father or papa or some other endearment. But they sometimes don't learn their father's name until they are much older. Therefore, it is not necessary that a son call his father by his name. In fact, it is frequently considered dishonorable for a son to address his father by his name.

[JehovahsWitness]

You calling God by his name places you outside of His home.

So why did you refer to The Divine Name (YAWEH) above in connection with "the Lords prayer"? Are you suggesting we should indeed "hallow" God's name but we do this by never mentioning or caling God by it because if you do you it means you Are not one of his children!?

If so, shouldn't you have mentioned this in your explanation of what it means to "hallow" God's name? Or was that also an oversight because you took it that everyone knew not to address God by it.


JW

[De Maria]

Is English your first language? Or did you study grammar in school?

Because this is obviously not a command. It is not a directive.
It is an expression of praise.

It is a jussive subjunctive and the word jussive comes from the supine of the Latin verb, iubere, to command. It is not a direct command, like GIVE us, LEAD US, FORGIVE us. As an irrelevant point of interest, I've studied English grammar in detail,

And you OBVIOUSLY have not understood it.

The jussive (abbreviated JUS) is a grammatical mood of verbs for issuing orders, commanding, or exhorting (within a subjunctive framework). English verbs are not marked for this mood.
Jussive mood - Wikipedia

Before you interpret any language, you need to study the culture, beliefs and intent of the people who speak it.

Show me where it was either customary or even permitted for the Hebrew people to
"command" God in any mood or tense; directly or indirectly.

and the grammar of many other languages. It helps a little with the analysis of the prayer.

In this case, a little knowledge has proven a dangerous thing for you.

Your attempt to explain the prayer is partially successful but it takes no account of the imperatives used.

Reducing a prayer to sentence structure and grammar, misses the point.

Of course addressing God is an act of praise.

The most important point. And since you claim to know this, you must have decided to leave it out.

DO NOT LET US FALL INTO TEMPTATION is a silly suggestion that God should stop us from sinning, rather than give us the choice by our free will.

On the contrary, I think you need to study the customs of the people within whom this prayer was born before you judge anything that they do. In fact, it is silly of you to try to judge this prayer without taking those customs into consideration.

It is a simple plea for God to guide the people as a Shepherd guides His Sheep away from danger. Have you even taken the time to study the Old Testament?

The usual rendering is:

In English. I thought that you said that you studied other languages?

Lead us not into temptation, and this imperative form does require a lot of explanation.

You'll have to speak to the original interpreters. But it is the intent of the original authors which is important. And that is amply explained by our cultural institutions.

It is such a pity that Jesus didn't see fit to indulge us with the type of explanation you've generaously supplied.

Lol! Where do you think I got it? Jesus Christ established a Church and sent that Church out into the world to Teach all that He commanded.

Matthew 28:18 And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth. 19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: 20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world. Amen.

That Church is still here and He is still Teaching through her.

[De Maria]

Asked for bread, Jesus gave a stone, a useless empty collection of words.

Did Jesus disappoint you at some time in your life?

[De Maria]

You calling God by his name places you outside of His home.

So why did you refer to The Divine Name (YAWEH) above in connection with "the Lords prayer"?

Because God's children know His name. In fact, it is our family name.

Are you suggesting we should indeed "hallow" God's name but we do this by never mentioning or caling God by it because if you do you it means you Are not one of his children!?

Lol! If I were a lawyer, I'd scream out, "OBJECTION! Argumentative. The defendant has nowhere suggested that God's name should not be hallowed. In fact, in his first post on this thread, he explained that it should be hallowed. The accuser is trying to twist his words."

What game are you playing? Did you read my first post, completely? Or did you just single out a phrase with which you have a problem because you have an agenda?

If so, shouldn't you have mentioned this in your explanation of what it means to "hallow" God's name?

I know what it means to me. What does it mean to you? Because that is getting to the root of the problem you have with my explanation.

Or was that also an oversight because you took it that everyone knew not to address God by it.

You're tying yourself in knots. What does that even mean? Take a deep breath and explain yourself.

What does "hallow" God's name mean to you?
Why does it offend you when people don't mention God's name with every stroke of the pen?

[JehovahsWitness]

[Replying to post 29 by De Maria]

Yes I did read your post, you said to "hallow" God's name we should worshipped it, revere it, recognize it and proclaimed but apparently not actually USE it ....because those that actually address God by his name prove they are placing themselves {quote} ..." outside of His home.". Since most believers want to be inside Gods home, would that not mean mean they should proclaim it and praise it, revere it, but refrain from using it in prayer, religious song and worship and I presume conversation?