Is anything unbelievable (in the Bible)?

[Jagella]

As we should know the Bible has stories about talking snakes, talking donkeys, unicorns, dragons, and flying zombies. Many Christians believe all these tales must be true because they are in the Bible. One Christian famously stated: "I'd believe the Bible if it said that Jonah swallowed the whale!"

Question for Debate: Is there anything so outlandish that you would not believe it even if it's in the Bible?

I'm wondering if there is a limit to what people will believe. There may be a point at which even the most faithful Christian reading her Bible might stop and say: "No way can I believe that! I'd be a really gullible fool if I did."

[SallyF]

There may be a point at which even the most faithful Christian reading her Bible might stop and say: "No way can I believe that! I'd be a really gullible fool if I did."

Like maybe:

1 Then Yahweh said to Moses,
2 “Tell the people of Israel to bring you twelve wooden staffs, one from each leader of Israel’s ancestral tribes, and inscribe each leader’s name on his staff.
3 Inscribe Aaron’s name on the staff of the tribe of Levi, for there must be one staff for the leader of each ancestral tribe.
4 Place these staffs in the Tabernacle in front of the Ark containing the tablets of the Covenant, where I meet with you.
5 Buds will sprout on the staff belonging to the man I choose. Then I will finally put an end to the people’s murmuring and complaining against you.�
6 So Moses gave the instructions to the people of Israel, and each of the twelve tribal leaders, including Aaron, brought Moses a staff.
7 Moses placed the staffs in Yahweh’s presence in the Tabernacle of the Covenant.
8 When he went into the Tabernacle of the Covenant the next day, he found that Aaron’s staff, representing the tribe of Levi, had sprouted, budded, blossomed, and produced ripe almonds!



But to get out of that awkward, gullible fool situation, one can maybe pass off fantastical stories of mythological gods talking to possibly fictional humans and making magical things happen with sticks, as allegory, or symbolism, or metaphor, or philosophy, or quibble over the meaning of the words of a dead language (take your pick) or, as we atheists do, one may consider them to be make-believe with a possible human message.

Certain of us do know the differences in terminology, and don't need to pretend that make-believe is something that it's not.

[Jagella]

[Replying to post 30 by SallyF]

I see your point to be that there are probably political motivations behind many Bible stories. In your example, Moses, we are told, was instructed by the Bible god to use sticks to choose the next leader of the Hebrews, the choice being indicated by the chosen man's stick magically sprouting buds. (I must wonder why Yahweh didn't just tell the Hebrews in person who their next leader would be rather than rely on sticks to tell them.) Of course, Moses' boy Aaron received the "winning vote" from Yahweh, Aaron's stick sprouting the miraculous buds. Needless to say, Jews and Christians have no proof that the Bible god chose Aaron this way to lead the Hebrews or chose Aaron any other way for that matter, but they are to believe this story.

The gospel tale is similar to this story in that Jesus is eventually magically appointed by his Father of the Sky (FOTS), "Lord of lords and King of kings" to rule over all people. We are to accept the story in Revelation 17:14 without any other evidence that Jesus has any right to rule the earth. Of course, any person can make up such a story to appoint a king, and no god is needed to do so.

So yes, we should be a bit slow to believe any story in the Bible or anywhere else that is obviously politically motivated. Gods appointing kings are not in evidence, but people lying to attain political power is an integral part of our world.

[tam]

Peace to you!

[Replying to post 30 by SallyF]

In your example, Moses, we are told, was instructed by the Bible god to use sticks to choose the next leader of the Hebrews, the choice being indicated by the chosen man's stick magically sprouting buds.

It would not have been magic. If that happened as written, it would have been science (just science that is beyond our abilities or current understanding). A wooden staff would be from a tree, yes? Depending upon how old or new that staff was, it might still have some life in it. Even if not, if God can resurrect a living being with his great power/dynamic energy, then why not also a branch from a tree that is a living thing?

(I must wonder why Yahweh didn't just tell the Hebrews in person who their next leader would be rather than rely on sticks to tell them.)

Israel did not want to hear the voice of God (Exodus 20:19). They wanted Moses to intercede for them. Also, a sign accompanying the decision (with Moses interceding) might be needed to help the people accept that this is truly from God and to silence any further doubt or dissent.




Peace again to you all,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy

[Jagella]

It would not have been magic. If that happened as written, it would have been science (just science that is beyond our abilities or current understanding). A wooden staff would be from a tree, yes? Depending upon how old or new that staff was, it might still have some life in it. Even if not, if God can resurrect a living being with his great power/dynamic energy, then why not also a branch from a tree that is a living thing?

Tam, staffs are made of dead wood. Dead wood doesn't sprout unless a magical being makes it sprout (if you find that believable). Even if the staffs were made of yet living wood, they'd die too soon to sprout any buds. And how is it that Aaron got that one living staff that sprouted?

Israel did not want to hear the voice of God (Exodus 20:19). They wanted Moses to intercede for them. Also, a sign accompanying the decision (with Moses interceding) might be needed to help the people accept that this is truly from God and to silence any further doubt or dissent.

That passage said the Hebrews were afraid of God. Can't God figure out that if you want to have good dialogue with people, it's best not to scare the crap out of them? How can you believe that an all-knowing, all-good god acted so foolishly and cruelly?

your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy

No gods, no masters, no slaves,
Jagella

[tam]

Peace to you,

It would not have been magic. If that happened as written, it would have been science (just science that is beyond our abilities or current understanding). A wooden staff would be from a tree, yes? Depending upon how old or new that staff was, it might still have some life in it. Even if not, if God can resurrect a living being with his great power/dynamic energy, then why not also a branch from a tree that is a living thing?

Tam, staffs are made of dead wood. Dead wood doesn't sprout unless a magical being makes it sprout (if you find that believable). Even if the staffs were made of yet living wood, they'd die too soon to sprout any buds. And how is it that Aaron got that one living staff that sprouted?

Because that is the one that God caused to sprout.

Israel did not want to hear the voice of God (Exodus 20:19). They wanted Moses to intercede for them. Also, a sign accompanying the decision (with Moses interceding) might be needed to help the people accept that this is truly from God and to silence any further doubt or dissent.

That passage said the Hebrews were afraid of God. Can't God figure out that if you want to have good dialogue with people, it's best not to scare the crap out of them? How can you believe that an all-knowing, all-good god acted so foolishly and cruelly?

What foolishness? What cruelty? What do you think God did other than come down and speak?

They were frightened of God and of His power. That might be considered a lack of faith on their behalf. God had just rescued them from Egypt (including from all the plagues that were sent and that did not harm Israel). He had just fed them in the desert and gave them water to drink. He obviously cared enough about them to hear their cries and rescue them. He was not going to come down to cause them harm.



Peace again to you,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy

[AdHoc]

As we should know the Bible has stories about talking snakes, talking donkeys, unicorns, dragons, and flying zombies. Many Christians believe all these tales must be true because they are in the Bible. One Christian famously stated: "I'd believe the Bible if it said that Jonah swallowed the whale!"

Question for Debate: Is there anything so outlandish that you would not believe it even if it's in the Bible?

I'm wondering if there is a limit to what people will believe. There may be a point at which even the most faithful Christian reading her Bible might stop and say: "No way can I believe that! I'd be a really gullible fool if I did."

I can think of at least two things that might be so outlandish that I would have trouble believing them even if they were in the bible and a third that's just plain hard to believe:

1) Everything we can see, everything we can't see and everything we will never know about was basically a huge uncaused accident caused by nothing and no one.

2) That all life on earth came from non life with no one's help.

3) That Narwhals exist. Swimming unicorns that live at the north pole?... yeah right.

[Jagella]

I can think of at least two things that might be so outlandish that I would have trouble believing them even if they were in the bible and a third that's just plain hard to believe:

There's nothing like an answer!

Everything we can see, everything we can't see and everything we will never know about was basically a huge uncaused accident caused by nothing and no one.

I don't believe that either. I'm honest enough to say don't know "how it all began."

That all life on earth came from non life with no one's help.

Again, I don't know the answer, but if a "one" created life, then we have another question to ask: where did that "one" come from? It seems like if we posit a "one" to create life, then we just trade one question for another question.

That Narwhals exist. Swimming unicorns that live at the north pole?... yeah right.

The Bible doesn't mention Narwhals, but we can see them. "Seeing is believing." I suppose Narwhals are not mentioned in the Bible because there weren't any around in the Middle East for the Bible writers to know of. It's funny how the Bible god doesn't know any more than the people who wrote the Bible knew.

In any case, is it safe to assume that talking donkeys and flying zombies are believable for you?

[1213]

As we should know the Bible has stories about talking snakes, talking donkeys, unicorns, dragons, and flying zombies...

By what I know, Bible doesn’t speak about zombies. So, why do you?

[Jagella]

By what I know, Bible doesn’t speak about zombies. So, why do you?

A zombie is a person who has risen from the grave. Such zombies are popular in the Bible. Recognizing them for what they are goes a long way in realizing that some claims are too preposterous to believe.

But what might make you skeptical even if it's in the Bible? Or would you believe anything as long as it's in the Bible?

[tam]

Peace to you,

By what I know, Bible doesn’t speak about zombies. So, why do you?

A zombie is a person who has risen from the grave. Such zombies are popular in the Bible. Recognizing them for what they are goes a long way in realizing that some claims are too preposterous to believe.

And this is another example of the strawman argument that you (and others) create. It has already been pointed out to you that a zombie is an animated CORPSE. A zombie is a dead thing.

Christ did not rise a dead thing. Lazarus did not rise a dead thing. No one who rose from the dead, rose as a dead thing.

They rose as living beings.

But this was argued to you earlier, and you have continued to ignore it, I guess so you can continue to keep this silly strawman as part of your argument. But it is not the resurrection (of Christ, or of anyone) that is too preposterous to believe. Only the silly strawman is preposterous.



Peace again to you,
- a slave of Christ,
tammy