The Millennium, the 1000 years of Revelation 20...

[Checkpoint]

This thread stems from the following exchange between myself and Pinseeker:

PinSeeker wrote:

The millennium of Revelation 20 is not a future event. It was when Jeremiah prophesied, obviously, but is not anymore. Or, to be more exacting, it's no longer merely a future event.

Checkpoint asked:

Then why do so many believers think of it as yet future only?

Pinseeker explained:

For at least two reasons, I think:

1. A basic misunderstanding of Revelation as a whole, and the Millennium of chapter 20 included.

2. Many believers (primarily western believers) have bought into the heresy of the "rapture," which came about in the early 19th century. It's not that they are heretics, it's just that that's all they've ever been exposed to.

That's one take from one school of thought.

Your take may be similar or be completely different.

Please share it here, and tell us why you hold that position.

[onewithhim]

... Satan successfully sealed the scriptures from mankind's understanding in the first three or four pages of the Bible. .

If Satan has sealed the scriptures from being understood, how do you know you have correctly understood Revelation?

Go to other posts related to...


THE DEATH, RESURRECTION and ...THE BOOK OF REVELATION

Gosh, JW, I have a feeling that people aren't bothering to click on your links at all, which, if they did, all questions would be answered, and Scripturally. Many of their ideas can't be upheld by Scripture. For example, many folks keep beating a dead horse about the Sabbath. Their insistence on keeping the Sabbath clashes with everything the Apostle Paul wrote about Jesus fulfilling the Law, and also even what Jesus said about fulfilling the Law.

So, if we want to keep practicing or believing things that are clearly anti-scriptural, we are tossing out most of the Scriptures!

The website for a witness of Jehovah has everything figured out that agrees with ALL Scripture. www.jw.org

This is a good thing to check out, rather than ignore it as something "weird." I guess they called Jesus weird too.

[onewithhim]

[Replying to post 29 by myth-one.com]

I agree with you absolutely that all people must be given ALL the information that pertains to their eternal lives. They must have a clear understanding to make an informed choice about whether or not they want to live under God's rule.

[onewithhim]

[Replying to post 32 by PinSeeker]

You didn't answer the question: Is there one thing that would be an advantage for a spirit person to be summoned back to his physical body?

If a person really separated from his physical body at death (that is, he doesn't REALLY die) and goes to heaven or some other spirit realm, why would he want to be returned to his physical body? Paul already described the physical body as something unwanted by him. He wanted to always live with Christ in heaven.

So to return EVERYONE to their physical bodies doesn't make sense. There are some who will be in heaven, in spirit bodies, with Christ, and then most of the people who ever lived will be brought back to life on the earth in physical bodies. How else would they truly enjoy building houses, sitting under their own trees, making gardens, watching their children playing with animals (even lions and snakes), and much more?

"They will actually sit, each one under his vine and under his fig tree, and there will be no one making them tremble..." (Micah 4:4)

"They will certainly build houses and have occupancy; and they will certainly plant vineyards and eat their fruitage....They will not toil for nothing, nor will they bring to birth for disturbance." (Isaiah 65:21-23)

"The wolf will actually reside with the lamb, and with the kid the leopard will lie down, and the calf and the young lion and the well-fed animal all together; and a little boy will lead them....They will not do any harm or cause any ruin in all my holy mountain; because the earth will certainly be filled with the knowledge of Jehovah as the waters are covering the very sea." (Isaiah 11: 6-9)


This all looks like a physical existence here on the earth, and the question comes up---who is ruling over the earth? That is what Jesus and his "New Jerusalem" will be doing. Heaven is where some of his followers have gone, a relatively FEW people from the earth, to rule with Him. Those that are resurrected to heaven will never be brought back to life on Earth. They live in a glorious place, and it would be ridiculous to make them come back here.

"[Jesus, the King of those who rule as king and Lord of those who rule as lords] the one alone having immortality, who dwells in unapproachable light, whom not one of men has seen or can see." (I Timothy 6:16)

Most of us have a desire to live here on Earth. Those few that are Jesus' "bride" have the desire to live in heaven.


[/b]

[Checkpoint]

... Satan successfully sealed the scriptures from mankind's understanding in the first three or four pages of the Bible. .

If Satan has sealed the scriptures from being understood, how do you know you have correctly understood Revelation?

Go to other posts related to...


THE DEATH, RESURRECTION and ...THE BOOK OF REVELATION

Gosh, JW, I have a feeling that people aren't bothering to click on your links at all, which, if they did, all questions would be answered, and Scripturally. Many of their ideas can't be upheld by Scripture. For example, many folks keep beating a dead horse about the Sabbath. Their insistence on keeping the Sabbath clashes with everything the Apostle Paul wrote about Jesus fulfilling the Law, and also even what Jesus said about fulfilling the Law.

So, if we want to keep practicing or believing things that are clearly anti-scriptural, we are tossing out most of the Scriptures!

The website for a witness of Jehovah has everything figured out that agrees with ALL Scripture. www.jw.org

This is a good thing to check out, rather than ignore it as something "weird." I guess they called Jesus weird too.

Weird and wonderful, perhaps?

Anyone or any group that says they have "everything figured out" is heading for a fall.

A prime example is the author of the book, "88 reasons why the Rapture will be in 1988".

Another obvious one is Catholic (so-called) infallibility.

A little more humility, even a lot more, is so important, in an individual and in a leadership.

Yes it may be difficult, but it will have a real payoff for those of us who take the narrow way.

That way includes being as wise as serpents and as harmless as doves.

Grace and peace.

[Checkpoint]

[Replying to post 50 by onewithhim]

It is being taught that Revelation 20:5 means that the dead who died in the "first death"---from Abel to my cousin who died this morning---will be resurrected AFTER the Thousand-Year Reign. But such is not the case. (What could the Thousand-Year Reign, also called "Judgment Day," be for, if not to raise back to life the billions who have died and teach them all the truth about God and Christ, if they hadn't had that knowledge?)

That verse means that "the rest of the dead," other than those raised to heaven to rule with Christ, would, after the Millennial Reign, be eligible to maintain their lives forever---thus truly "coming to life." That is: eternal life, which they were deemed worthy of during the Thousand-Year Reign. They were taught the truth, they showed that they accepted it, and they were judged worthy of living forever.

This is quite deep, and we must ask Jehovah for Holy Spirit to really get it. I trust that we are all doing that.

Respectfully, it may be deep, but is it really "the case" you present, or as "is being taught" by others?

For me the answer is easy because the choice is evident.

It is between what verse 5 does say and what verse 5 and all of scripture does not say or imply.

It is between leaving the verse intact and adding to it a whole story that is not there or anywhere else.

It is between exegesis and eisegesis.

Grace and peace.

[onewithhim]

[Replying to post 55 by Checkpoint]

The meaning of verse 5 focuses on the rest of the dead (other than the co-rulers with Christ) "coming to life" when the thousand years were ended. What does "coming to life" actually mean? Does it mean that the dead are resurrected AFTER the thousand years? Or does it mean that these dead have passed the test, if you will, of accepting the truth about God and Christ during the Millennial Reign, and then living according to the "new scrolls" that were opened when Armageddon was over (Rev.20:12), then making themselves eligible for everlasting life? The fact that these formerly dead people have now proven their faithfulness to God and Christ makes them approved to live forever---thus "coming to life".....the real life, the life that will never end.

This makes the most sense to me, and it's not just because someone said that is what verse 5 means.

[PinSeeker]

I do see your point, Pinseeker, but I also do disagree with it.

Why?

Because that Revelation 20 passage itself spells out what is "second" in time sequence.

It is "the second death".

Only in Revelation are the terms "first resurrection" and "second death" used.

The challenge for us is to determine what exactly they are used for, just what they intend to convey, in that context.

Outside of Revelation there is only one resurrection, not two or more.

It consists of both the saved and the lost; of both believers and unbelievers.

Anyway, think about what I am saying.

Grace and peace.

I don't think you do see my point, Checkpoint. No disrespect intended, of course. I think it would be of benefit to restate to you what I said to tam in post 30. To Tam, I wrote:

• The Revelation passage you cite above (chapter 20)...
  
  I saw thrones on which were seated those who had been given authority to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony about Jesus and because of the word of God. They had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years. (The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended.) This is the first resurrection. Blessed and holy are those who share in the first resurrection. The second death has no power over them, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with him for a thousand years.
  
  ... specifically the part you bolded, should be read to say that those coming to life spiritually and reigning with Christ is happening over the thousand-year period. And again, it's not literally a thousand years, but the entire church age (as 1000 is a number symbolizing completeness). In other words, the dead came to life... were spiritually reborn... over the thousand-year period -- each one at some particular point during the thousand-year period -- and reigned with Christ during that time -- each one from the point that he/she came to life to the end of the thousand-year period; this is a direct reference to the point at which sinners were born again and became believers in Christ. This is what Paul describes in Ephesians 2:4-6...
  
  "But God, being rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), and raised us up with Him, and seated us with Him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus..."
  
  The first resurrection is spiritual in nature -- we become alive in Christ -- and the second resurrection is physical -- the physical rejoins the spiritual at the time of Christ's return. This is exactly what Paul is saying in the 1st Thessalonians 4 passage you cite above; he's reassuring the Thessalonicans that if they are still alive at the time of Christ's return, they will not physically die but rather be caught up along with those who have been physically resurrected and will be with the Lord Jesus forever.
  
  Finally, the second resurrection is a general one; everyone is included... this is what that parenthetical expression in the Revelation passage you cited above -- "The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended" -- is saying. Yes, it can be confusing if one misreads it; John is talking about the first resurrection in what you bolded above, but in that parenthetical expression in between, he refers to the second resurrection.
  
  At any rate, then comes the Judgment, where the wheat is separated from the tares, or the sheep from the goats, and, in the words of Jesus in Matthew 25, He says to the ones on His right (the wheat; His sheep; believers):
  
  "Well done, good and faithful servant..." and "Come, you who are blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world..."
  
  And then to the ones on His left (the tares; goats; unbelievers):
  
  "You wicked, lazy servant..." and "Depart from Me, accursed ones, into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels..."

So, I think you possibly may be understanding incorrectly that I am saying there are two (or more?) physical resurrections. This is not the case. Again, the first resurrection is spiritual, not physical, in nature. It is in this life, when, as Peter says, we are born again to a living hope (1 Peter 1), or Paul, when he says "But God...made us alive together with Christ... and raised us up with Him, and seated us with Him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus..." (Ephesians 2:4-6).

The second resurrection is physical in nature, and is a general resurrection of all the dead, believer and unbeliever, and subsequently, Jesus executes the Judgment.

I think the problem is that several people here (maybe not you, but possibly) are reading Revelation 20 as one big event. It's not that at all. Verses 1-7 describe the church age -- from the time of Jesus's ascension to the time He returns (which we are in the midst of now) -- and 8-20 are together sort of an event 2A and 2B, the latter of which is the Judgement, after which unbelievers suffer the second death (the first being their physical passing from this life).

[PinSeeker]

You didn't answer the question: Is there one thing that would be an advantage for a spirit person to be summoned back to his physical body?

Well, I did, but I'll do so again: because the physical body will be redeemed and glorified. At that point, it will no longer be the body of death Paul describes in Romans 7:24, but like that of Jesus after His resurrection. We will finally be truly like Jesus, who walked the earth in His physical body after His resurrection. Of course, His body didn't need to be redeemed, because He is the Redeemer. But that's beside the point; we'll be like him, physical as can be. He had to show Thomas His physical body, right (John 20)? Yeah, so, we'll be like Him.

Most of us have a desire to live here on Earth. Those few that are Jesus' "bride" have the desire to live in heaven.

Oh yeah, that'll happen alright. But when earth and heaven are one -- when the New Jerusalem comes down out of heaven (Revelation 3, Revelation 22); this is a material, physical event -- there will be a physical life to be lived. Eternally, of course. Is that not just fantastically exciting? My goodness. I can't wait.

[onewithhim]

You didn't answer the question: Is there one thing that would be an advantage for a spirit person to be summoned back to his physical body?

Well, I did, but I'll do so again: because the physical body will be redeemed and glorified. At that point, it will no longer be the body of death Paul describes in Romans 7:24, but like that of Jesus after His resurrection. We will finally be truly like Jesus, who walked the earth in His physical body after His resurrection. Of course, His body didn't need to be redeemed, because He is the Redeemer. But that's beside the point; we'll be like him, physical as can be. He had to show Thomas His physical body, right (John 20)? Yeah, so, we'll be like Him.

Most of us have a desire to live here on Earth. Those few that are Jesus' "bride" have the desire to live in heaven.

Oh yeah, that'll happen alright. But when earth and heaven are one -- when the New Jerusalem comes down out of heaven (Revelation 3, Revelation 22); this is a material, physical event -- there will be a physical life to be lived. Eternally, of course. Is that not just fantastically exciting? My goodness. I can't wait.

If there are people who go to heaven, which there are, they are made alive in a SPIRIT body. No physical body can survive in heaven, the spirit world. (I Corinthians 15: 50) You say that they are returned to a physical body to be "redeemed and glorified." Aren't they ALREADY redeemed and glorified, once they go to heaven? There is no reason whatsoever for them to return to their physical life on Earth.

Another point I'd like to make....Jesus did not walk the earth, after his resurrection, in the physical body that he had when he died. If he had taken back that physical body, he would have taken back his SACRIFICE, and we would all still be in our sins. Why would he do that?

The Scriptures say that he came to life as a spirit person.

"It is even so written: 'The first man Adam became a living soul.' The last Adam became a life-giving spirit." (I Corinthians 15:45)

"Even Christ died once for all time concerning sins, a righteous person for unrighteous ones, that he might lead you to God, he being put to death in the flesh, but being made alive in the SPIRIT." (I Peter 3:18)


If you'll recall....Mary didn't recognize him when she went to see where he had lain in the tomb and he appeared to her, and the disciples he encountered on the road to Emmaus did not recognize him either until he spoke about many things having to do with himself, the Christ. He did not have the same body he died with, and he had to materialize a physical body after his resurrection, just as the angels of ancient times did when they appeared to various ones.

[myth-one.com]

. . . we'll be like him, physical as can be.

Then we will have gained nothing.

We're physical now!