Christianity Defined

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Jagella
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Christianity Defined

Post #1

Post by Jagella »

I found an “internet meme� courtesy of Richard Carrier that provided what might be described as a “clothes-off� definition of Christianity. My paraphrase of that definition is the following:
  • Christianity - the belief that some cosmic Jewish Guy-in-the-Sky who got a virgin pregnant with himself without a penis can make you live forever if you pretend to eat his flesh and drink his blood and also tell him telepathically that you accept him as your master to be obeyed at all cost even to the point of death the purpose of doing so being to have him remove an independent, self-sufficient attitude from your mind that all people are born with and need to survive because a woman born as a rib was convinced by a talking snake to eat some fruit growing on a tree that magically gave her the ability to understand what is good and what is evil.
(Note that the vast majority of scholars are completely convinced that the Jewish Guy urging symbolic cannibalism and vampirism existed although many of them do not insist that his being in the sky and getting a virgin pregnant with himself is necessarily historical.)

Question for Debate: Can anybody here point out any inaccuracies in this definition?

Yes, it's an absurd idea, but it is what Christians believe!

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Re: Christianity Defined

Post #2

Post by bjs »

Jagella wrote: I found an “internet meme� courtesy of Richard Carrier that provided what might be described as a “clothes-off� definition of Christianity. My paraphrase of that definition is the following:
  • Christianity - the belief that some cosmic Jewish Guy-in-the-Sky who got a virgin pregnant with himself without a penis can make you live forever if you pretend to eat his flesh and drink his blood and also tell him telepathically that you accept him as your master to be obeyed at all cost even to the point of death the purpose of doing so being to have him remove an independent, self-sufficient attitude from your mind that all people are born with and need to survive because a woman born as a rib was convinced by a talking snake to eat some fruit growing on a tree that magically gave her the ability to understand what is good and what is evil.
(Note that the vast majority of scholars are completely convinced that the Jewish Guy urging symbolic cannibalism and vampirism existed although many of them do not insist that his being in the sky and getting a virgin pregnant with himself is necessarily historical.)

Question for Debate: Can anybody here point out any inaccuracies in this definition?
Well, off the top of my head:

1. “cosmic�
Definition of cosmic: of or relating to the cosmos, the extraterrestrial vastness, or the universe in contrast to the earth alone

Christianity does not teach that there have ever been any Jewish guys born anywhere other than on earth.

2. “Guy-in-Sky�
Christians do not believe that anyone lives in the sky.

3. “got a virgin pregnant with himself�
Christians do not believe this. One of the two most important Christian Creeds says that Jesus was “conceived by the Holy Spirit.� Christian doctrine teaches the Holy Spirit is not Jesus, just as Jesus is not the Father and Father is not the Spirit.

4. “pretend to eat his flesh and drink his blood�
No form of Christianity teaches that we pretend anything during Mass/Communion/the Lord’s Supper. Some believe in transubstantiation, in which there is a metaphysical, though not bio-chemical, change to the elements. Other believe the elements hold symbolic meaning. I am going to assume for the moment that most people understand the difference between “symbolic� and “pretend.�

5. “telepathically�
Definition of telepathic: Adjective; supposedly capable of transmitting thoughts to other people and of knowing their thoughts; psychic.

Claiming that God is omniscient, and therefore knows a person’s thoughts, is not the same thing as telepathy.

6. “remove an independent, self-sufficient attitude from you mind that all people are born with and need to survive�
If being independent were actually needed to survive then the human race would have died out long ago since we are, at the very minimum, dependent on others for the continuation of the species.

7. “woman born as a rib�
While Genesis does say that Eve was created from a piece of Adam’s side, saying that she was “born as a rib� makes as a much sense as saying “all people are born as carbon atoms.�

8. “talking snake�
I suppose we could let this one pass, though it is an overly-literal take on a story and does not represent what Christians actually believe was going on.

9. “magically gave her the ability to understand what is good and what is evil.�
Once a person has done both what is good and what is evil, then that person understands what both good and evil are. Magic is not required.


I will note that I am speaking only for orthodox Christianity, which makes up the overwhelming majority of Christians. I recognize that there are groups outside of orthodoxy which claim to be Christians. I cannot speak for them.


Jagella wrote: but it is what Christians believe!
It is not.
Understand that you might believe. Believe that you might understand. –Augustine of Hippo

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Re: Christianity Defined

Post #3

Post by Jagella »

bjs wrote:Christianity does not teach that there have ever been any Jewish guys born anywhere other than on earth.
Who said that any Jewish guys were born beyond the earth? If Christianity made that claim, then you would surely be incredulous. Nevertheless, we do have an issue with a father and his son being as old as the other.
“Guy-in-Sky�
Christians do not believe that anyone lives in the sky.
Christians have never heard of astronauts?

In any case, I have read the Bible, and the Christian god sure seems to spend much time in the sky raining down fire and manna from there not to mention Elijah and Jesus floating up into the sky to get to him.
“got a virgin pregnant with himself�
Christians do not believe this. One of the two most important Christian Creeds says that Jesus was “conceived by the Holy Spirit.� Christian doctrine teaches the Holy Spirit is not Jesus, just as Jesus is not the Father and Father is not the Spirit.
But if there is only one god, and that god got poor Mary pregnant with Jesus who is that god, then that god got Mary pregnant with himself.
“pretend to eat his flesh and drink his blood�
No form of Christianity teaches that we pretend anything during Mass/Communion/the Lord’s Supper.
You mean you seriously believe you are eating actual human flesh and drinking actual human blood?
Some believe in transubstantiation, in which there is a metaphysical, though not bio-chemical, change to the elements. Other believe the elements hold symbolic meaning.
Which of these two contradictory views is orthodox, and how can you tell the difference?
“telepathically�
Definition of telepathic: Adjective; supposedly capable of transmitting thoughts to other people and of knowing their thoughts; psychic.

Claiming that God is omniscient, and therefore knows a person’s thoughts, is not the same thing as telepathy.
It looks the same to me. Are you saying that God cannot transmit thoughts?
“remove an independent, self-sufficient attitude from you mind that all people are born with and need to survive�
If being independent were actually needed to survive then the human race would have died out long ago since we are, at the very minimum, dependent on others for the continuation of the species.
So you never think or act independently. I do all the time, and it can be a big help. I don't know why God hates it so much.
“woman born as a rib�
While Genesis does say that Eve was created from a piece of Adam’s side, saying that she was “born as a rib� makes as a much sense as saying “all people are born as carbon atoms.�
Then let's say Eve was conceived from a rib. That makes much better sense.
“talking snake�
I suppose we could let this one pass, though it is an overly-literal take on a story and does not represent what Christians actually believe was going on.
So the story of the talking snake is avowed baloney. I really don't need Christians to tell me the story is baloney, but it helps.
“magically gave her the ability to understand what is good and what is evil.�
Once a person has done both what is good and what is evil, then that person understands what both good and evil are. Magic is not required.
But according to the story her eating the fruit of the magical tree gave her the knowledge of good and evil. I've often wondered what's so terrible about discerning good from evil and how eating fruit can enable me to do so.
I will note that I am speaking only for orthodox Christianity, which makes up the overwhelming majority of Christians. I recognize that there are groups outside of orthodoxy which claim to be Christians. I cannot speak for them.
I have yet to meet Christians who say their beliefs are unorthodox, and they often contradict other "orthodox" Christians.

I don't know if you've helped your case much with what you've posted. I think you would be better served accepting the definition of Christianity in the OP.

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Re: Christianity Defined

Post #4

Post by rikuoamero »

[Replying to post 2 by bjs]
Well, off the top of my head:

1. “cosmic�
Definition of cosmic: of or relating to the cosmos, the extraterrestrial vastness, or the universe in contrast to the earth alone

Christianity does not teach that there have ever been any Jewish guys born anywhere other than on earth.
What was Jesus?
2. “Guy-in-Sky�
Christians do not believe that anyone lives in the sky.
The following images disagree with you

Image

Image

Or your Holy Bible
"Now when He had spoken these things, while they watched, He was taken up, and a cloud received Him out of their sight. 10 And while they looked steadfastly toward heaven as He went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel, 11 who also said, “Men of Galilee, why do you stand gazing up into heaven? This same Jesus, who was taken up from you into heaven, will so come in like manner as you saw Him go into heaven.�"
3. “got a virgin pregnant with himself�
Christians do not believe this. One of the two most important Christian Creeds says that Jesus was “conceived by the Holy Spirit.� Christian doctrine teaches the Holy Spirit is not Jesus, just as Jesus is not the Father and Father is not the Spirit.
Trinitarians believe in a God that has three aspects, three faces, three forms as it were. Does it really make that much of a difference to say "God got Mary pregnant on himself" versus "Jesus got Mary pregnant on himself"?
It's still the same God, isn't it?
No form of Christianity teaches that we pretend anything during Mass/Communion/the Lord’s Supper. Some believe in transubstantiation, in which there is a metaphysical, though not bio-chemical, change to the elements. Other believe the elements hold symbolic meaning. I am going to assume for the moment that most people understand the difference between “symbolic� and “pretend.�
Oh, so they ARE drinking his blood and eating his flesh?
“telepathically�
Definition of telepathic: Adjective; supposedly capable of transmitting thoughts to other people and of knowing their thoughts; psychic.

Claiming that God is omniscient, and therefore knows a person’s thoughts, is not the same thing as telepathy.
...you just agreed with the definition! God knows our thoughts, therefore he is psychic. Or is this yet another case where Christians, to try to make sure their god doesn't sound as ridiculous as their religion makes him out to be, doesn't actually have the superpowers he was earlier said to have?
Why are you disagreeing that God is telepathic? Or that Christians think they are being telepathic when they pray to God?
While Genesis does say that Eve was created from a piece of Adam’s side, saying that she was “born as a rib� makes as a much sense as saying “all people are born as carbon atoms.�
It's nice to know you aren't actually disagreeing with the claim she was born from a rib.
I suppose we could let this one pass, though it is an overly-literal take on a story and does not represent what Christians actually believe was going on.
Heaven forfend that we read the text as it is written. The text has a serpent with the ability to speak, and so that's why Jagella said "talking snake".
Should I do with the Harry Potter books as you do with your Bible, and say Harry and Lord Voldemort didn't talk to snakes, it's an "overly-literal take" on the story?
9. “magically gave her the ability to understand what is good and what is evil.�
Once a person has done both what is good and what is evil, then that person understands what both good and evil are. Magic is not required.
So why were the fruits described as such? What if God had said "Don't piddle in that bush over there", would piddling in the bush have then given Adam and Eve knowledge of good and evil?
Does it not strike you as the least bit ridiculous as to what you're saying here - that doing something someone else labels as bad somehow imparts knowledge?
I will note that I am speaking only for orthodox Christianity, which makes up the overwhelming majority of Christians. I recognize that there are groups outside of orthodoxy which claim to be Christians. I cannot speak for them.
What is this "orthodox" group? Eastern Orthodox? Roman Catholic? Protestant? Jehovah's Witnesses?
It is not.
If they don't, why is it in their holy book, which they profess to believe? Why is there much artwook depicting such things?
Image

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Re: Christianity Defined

Post #5

Post by Mithrae »

[Replying to post 1 by Jagella]

It's about as intelligent as Creationists who 'define' mainstream science along the lines of "Nothing exploded and because there was a really, really lot of it for a really, really long time it just randomly happened to produce complex life and apes gave birth to people with brains smart enough to persuade themselves this all makes sense." Personally I would try to aim a little higher than that, but perhaps Carrier is proud of measuring up to his intellectual equals :lol:

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Post #6

Post by Zzyzx »

.
Perhaps a brave Apologist will step forward and offer a definition of Christianity that is acceptable to Christendom?
.
Non-Theist

ANY of the thousands of "gods" proposed, imagined, worshiped, loved, feared, and/or fought over by humans MAY exist -- awaiting verifiable evidence

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Re: Christianity Defined

Post #7

Post by Jagella »

Mithrae wrote:It's about as intelligent as Creationists who 'define' mainstream science along the lines of "Nothing exploded and because there was a really, really lot of it for a really, really long time it just randomly happened to produce complex life and apes gave birth to people with brains smart enough to persuade themselves this all makes sense." Personally I would try to aim a little higher than that, but perhaps Carrier is proud of measuring up to his intellectual equals :lol:
So your response is that the definition of Christianity in the OP is stupid. I agree completely and wonder how any thinking person can believe in the following Christian doctrines and practices included in that definition:
  • â–º The Existence of the Christian God
    â–º The Omnipresence of the Christian God
    â–º The Virgin Birth
    â–º The Incarnation of Christ
    â–º Eternal Life in the Christian Heaven
    â–º The Eucharist
    â–º Prayer
    â–º Unquestioning Obedience to Divine Commands
    â–º Repentance
    â–º Original Sin
    â–º The Creation of Eve from Adam's Rib
    â–º The Fall and Exile from Eden
So Mith, I'm happy to see you're coming around to the correct view of Christianity.

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Post #8

Post by Jagella »

Zzyzx wrote:Perhaps a brave Apologist will step forward and offer a definition of Christianity that is acceptable to Christendom?
If they did post a different definition, then it would be heresy.

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Post #9

Post by JehovahsWitness »

Zzyzx wrote: .
Perhaps a brave Apologist will step forward and offer a definition of Christianity that is acceptable to Christendom?
I don't think it's brave to attempt the impossible, especially to satisfy unreasonable demands; rather it would be, in my opinion the very definition of stupidity
  • Christendom is comprised of anyone claiming to be a Christian and exists in a state of disorder confusion and often conflict. For example there is at least one individual on this forum that claims to be a Christian and yet doesn't seem to accept Jesus as "Christ" (the word Christ means MESSIAH); It is unreasonable to attempt to harmonize that which cannot be harmonized.
Christianity is faith that follows the example of Jesus Christ as presented in the bible canon.
All true Christians will, I believe find this definition acceptable. Personal opinion,

JEHOVAH'S WITNESS




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Post #10

Post by Tcg »

JehovahsWitness wrote:
Christianity is faith that follows the example of Jesus Christ as presented in the bible canon.


All true Christians will, I believe find this definition acceptable and that's good enough for me.


JEHOVAH'S WITNESS

The problem with your definition of Christianity is that even those who claim to follow "Jesus Christ as presented in the bible canon.", can't agree on who that Jesus was.


One of the biggest divides in that group is between those who claim he was God incarnate and those who argue that he was simply a man sent by God.


Given that the Bible itself doesn't make this distinction clear, it is not surprising that those who claim to follow the "Jesus Christ as presented in the bible canon." can't agree on a unified view of Jesus. "True Christians", as you call them, fall on both sides of the argument.



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