God creates only atheists.

[Jagella]

If the Christian god exists, then he has created us all (with some help from men and women having sex and women bearing children). Oddly, though, this god does not create us as Christians but as atheists. Creating us this way requires babies to be taught Christianity by their parents and elders which involves risk that babies may be taught the "wrong kind of Christianity," they won't be taught Christianity at all, they may be taught a "false" religion, or worst of all--they may taught that Christianity like all religions is a con game.

These facts beg the...

Question for Debate: Why does God create us as atheists?

I think it's safe to say that God could create us all as Christians, and it seems strange to me that he would not create us as Christians. Since we are born as atheists, it appears to cast doubt on the existence of any gods. Belief in gods then is not innate but was invented by people who wish to control other people.

For further reading see Ryan T. Cragun's What You Don't Know About Religion (but Should), Pages 27-31.

[Divine Insight]

[Replying to post 14 by William]

If you want to argue for an imperfect God be my guest.

The problem is that arguing for an imperfect God does nothing more than attempt to argue for a God who would basically create a world that is indistinguishable from a purely secular world.

In other words, you have precisely the same evidence for your God as a secularist has for a secular world.

So then we bring in Occam's Razor and ask why it is that you need to include an additional hypothesis of an invisible God for which we have no evidence, when the simpler secular worldview already explains everything we see.

By the way, don't hurt yourself with the facepalms.

[William]

Divine Insight: If you want to argue for an imperfect God be my guest.

William: I wasn't arguing for an imperfect GOD. If the non-theist claims that "life is not perfect therefore IF GOD exists, THEN GOD cannot be perfect." then it is up to the non-theist to explain what they mean by 'perfect'.
Having explained, they then should be able to show WHY an imperfect GOD would create an imperfect situation for us all to experience.
Rather, they - for the most part - excuse themselves from having to, on account that they are 'atheists' (even BORN atheist!!) and therefore their answer is a simplistic "GODs do NOT exist."

Divine Insight: The problem is that arguing for an imperfect God does nothing more than attempt to argue for a God who would basically create a world that is indistinguishable from a purely secular world.

William: It is a 'problem' you see because you assume that a world created should somehow be distinguishable from this world.
There has been no attempt by you to show WHY this would have to be the case.

Divine Insight: In other words, you have precisely the same evidence for your God as a secularist has for a secular world.

William: That was and has been my point. The evidence is the same. It is just interpreted differently. You see 'the world' as evidence that it cannot have been created. That is why you are not a theist. Why I am a theist is because I see the same world as having been created.
Your argument that if this world was created then it should be 'perfect' doesn't make sense, because you have not explained why that should have to be the case.

Divine Insight: So then we bring in Occam's Razor and ask why it is that you need to include an additional hypothesis of an invisible God for which we have no evidence, when the simpler secular worldview already explains everything we see

William: The is the secular claim, but it is simply based on the idea that a creator is not visible through Its creation, and that a creator should create a 'perfect' world if a creator truly existed.
Obviously then, in your secular opinion, the world is not 'perfect' - but why, in secular terms - should the world be perfect if a creator created it, and what about the world do you think is imperfect and why?

[1213]

If the Christian god exists, then he has created us all (with some help from men and women having sex and women bearing children). Oddly, though, this god does not create us as Christians but as atheists. Creating us this way requires babies to be taught ...

I think there is no evidence for that people are born/created atheists. After all, I think I have always believed in God. But I think this is matter that cannot be proven in any direction. However, atheism is not opposite of Christianity. Atheism means nowadays lack of belief in any god. It could be possible in principle to be born with belief in god, without being Christian or atheist.

[Jagella]

If you genuinely believe that the "seed of our reasoning abilities" is present in all of us as we gestate in our mothers' wombs...

Our brains along with the rest of us form in the womb, and we use our brains to reason. As a result, I conclude that our ability to reason starts in the womb.

This line of reasoning should be obvious. If you disagree with this logic, then please explain where I go wrong.

...then how do you know people are atheists in the womb?

People are atheists in the womb because they are born with no beliefs in gods. This "in-born atheism" is the reason most religions indoctrinate young children realizing that belief in gods is not innate but is taught. In other words, any time a Christian parent sends her kids to Sunday school, she is trying to replace her kids' atheism with her religion.

Unless you remember life prior to your birth, or you have conversed with someone prior to his or her birth, I can see no way for you to know that the seed of our reasoning abilities does not include faith in God.

I can vaguely remember my mother teaching her god to me when I was very young. Prior to that indoctrination, I have no recollections of god-belief on my part. If I did believe in a god before my mother told me, then I forgot that belief and needed to be reminded of it!

But I may be the exception to a rule that people are theists from the womb. It's unlikely but possible. Can you explain why if most other kids are born with belief in "God," then why do Christians spend so much time and effort indoctrinating children? It seems reasonable to me that if children are born with belief in a god, then they wouldn't always need to be taught whatever god their parents believe in unless, of course, the child is born believing in the "wrong" god.

Speaking of "incorrect" gods, which god do kids believe in at birth? Is it the Christian god? If people are born believing in the Christian god, then people belonging to other religions should know it. This innate Christianity would be a real problem for parents who are Jewish, Muslim, or Hindus.

Your own argument would suggest that the premise of this thread is nothing but fantasy and assumption.

I'll be happy to change my mind about people being born atheists if you can cite some good evidence that people are born believing in a god. You may be right considering that it's common for young children to have invisible friends. Maybe God is the adult version of those invisible friends.

[Zzyzx]

.
Does geographical location and historical era determine which god beliefs are characteristic of newborns? In other words, are infants born believing in different gods depending on their place and era of birth?

Since humans worship thousands of different gods, the birth belief issue must be very complex for the gods to sort out among themselves (if they are more than imaginary). Do they cast lots to decide which gods get which kids? Or do gods have designated territories (like salesmen)?

OR, does it seem more rational to think that infants are born without belief in gods, then taught / indoctrinated to believe in the gods favored by their parents and their society?

If god beliefs were inborn, it seems strange that infants in India are born believing in different gods than those born in Israel (or Japan, or US, or Honduras). Maybe it is something in the water?

It seems reasonable to me that humans are inclined to wonder or ask why various things happen " and if the causes are unknown to them and their society, to make up stories and fantasies to explain why.

When atmospheric processes were a great mystery, droughts, storms, floods were explained as actions of displeased gods. Likewise, before causes of diseases were identified and addressed, unhappy gods or curses were cited as the cause. In both instances, as knowledge of actual causes increased, the need for god explanations withered away (though still believed by many " even some people in educated cultures of the 21st Century).

Perhaps humans arent such an intelligent species after all.

[William]

[Replying to post 25 by Zzyzx]


Zzyzx: Are infants born believing in different gods depending on their place and era of birth?

William: Infants are not born believing or not believing anything. In order for belief or non belief to unfold, first information has to inserted.

Zzyzx: Perhaps humans arent such an intelligent species after all.

William: Who has been claiming that they are?
Humans are born with the potential to think rationally. Some use this toward supporting theism, and others in supporting atheism. We are all born potentially to become theists or atheist based on our opinions and interpretations
of the data we are experiencing through the human form.

OP: These facts...

William: These are not facts the OP has presented. They are opinions about circumstance.
Conflating "opinion" with "fact" doesn't help the OP argument.

OP: ......beg the...Question for Debate:
"Why does God create us as atheists?"

William: The 'question begged' rely's on the premise laid out. The answers coming forth from that, will be askew, if the premise itself is askew.
Clearly in the case of this OP, the premise is askew, and relies a lot of speculative opinion disguised as "fact"

OP: Since we are born as atheists, it appears to cast doubt on the existence of any gods.

William: That explains one reason why doubt in GODs existing occurs in some folk. When one believes that "we are born as atheists", doubt arises. However, 'doubt' that a creator of this universe exists, does not in itself provide evidence one way or another.

OP: Belief in gods then is not innate but was invented by people who wish to control other people.

William: If the OP is referring to the way people are controlled so that the controllers are gaining at the expense of the controlled, and what is gained is riches, elitism etc, then t such is not a product of "Christianity" or "Atheism" but something else entirely.
I write this, motivated by the idea that we can all learn the differences properly.

"We were born "atheists" therefore we are "Atheists" therefore if GOD does exist, GOD created us not to believe that GODs exists.

Even if that were the case, GOD obviously created us with the ability to change from being atheist to being theist once the data of experience booted up sufficiently for this to occur.
GOD created our forms to give us the experience of a having a beginning and being ignorant. Some wish to remain ignorant...because...at least in light of the OP argument..."GOD made us this way, therefore that is what we are."

[William]

Zzyzx: Perhaps humans arent such an intelligent species after all.

William: Who has been claiming that they are?

Zzyzx: If god beliefs were inborn, it seems strange that infants in India are born believing in different gods than those born in Israel (or Japan, or US, or Honduras).

William: Why would that seem strange? If one studies the ideas of GODs which derive under the influence of different cultures, one clearly sees the very similar connection regarding those ideas...once the cultural dressing is removed.
Granted, such a task is time consuming and requires intelligence and interest, but what is found therein is worth the effort.

[ttruscott]

If one studies the ideas of GODs which derive under the influence of different cultures, one clearly sees the very similar connection regarding those ideas...

Except YHWH is unique in that HE condemns all other gods a false and condemns the people who worship them for idolatry. No other 'God' does that...

[William]

William: If one studies the ideas of GODs which derive under the influence of different cultures, one clearly sees the very similar connection regarding those ideas...once the cultural dressing is removed.

ttruscott: Except YHWH is unique in that HE condemns all other gods a false and condemns the people who worship them for idolatry. No other 'God' does that...

William: "Removing the cultural dressing" has the same effect...you forgot to include that in the context of my words you quoted...it is the Cultural Dressing which is the idolatry...

[Jagella]

Does geographical location and historical era determine which god beliefs are characteristic of newborns?

No. They are all atheists. As soon as they are old enough to be indoctrinated, though, they are taught whatever religion and gods people of that place and time have believed in.

In other words, are infants born believing in different gods depending on their place and era of birth?

Again, people at birth believe in no gods at all.

Since humans worship thousands of different gods, the birth belief issue must be very complex for the gods to sort out among themselves (if they are more than imaginary). Do they cast lots to decide which gods get which kids? Or do gods have designated territories (like salesmen)?

If any gods are real, they appear to have no more knowledge than the people in a particular place and time have. Those gods also seem to focus on the people in the the one and only culture they are worshiped in. They care little for other people and places.

OR, does it seem more rational to think that infants are born without belief in gods, then taught / indoctrinated to believe in the gods favored by their parents and their society?

Yes. Religion is usually the result of socialization especially parent-to-child socialization.

If god beliefs were inborn, it seems strange that infants in India are born believing in different gods than those born in Israel (or Japan, or US, or Honduras). Maybe it is something in the water?

Belief in gods at death as well as in childhood appears to be peculiar to the culture people live in. When people have near-death experiences, they usually encounter the gods that have believed in all their lives.

It seems reasonable to me that humans are inclined to wonder or ask why various things happen " and if the causes are unknown to them and their society, to make up stories and fantasies to explain why.

It's also common for people to see causes where there are none. For example, if church members pray for good weather for a picnic, and the sun shines on the day of the picnic, they will believe their prayer caused the good weather. Of course, the sun shined coincidentally. If it rains on the day of the picnic, the failure of the prayer is ignored and forgotten. Only "answered" prayers are recognized, remembered, and used as a testimony to the power of God to grant prayer requests.

When atmospheric processes were a great mystery, droughts, storms, floods were explained as actions of displeased gods. Likewise, before causes of diseases were identified and addressed, unhappy gods or curses were cited as the cause. In both instances, as knowledge of actual causes increased, the need for god explanations withered away (though still believed by many " even some people in educated cultures of the 21st Century).

In Job 38 God interrogates poor Job asking him questions about the weather Job could not answer. Today we know the answers to many of those questions, and we know that gods do not cause rain or thunder. Maybe that's why God no longer appears in whirlwinds.

Perhaps humans arent such an intelligent species after all.

I'm afraid we may overrate ourselves.