What is the Biblical view of hell?

[otseng]

The concept of Hell is one of the many unmarketable, embarrassingly unbelievable religious concepts that has been recently swept under the altar in the severely diluted quasi-belief system that passes for Christianity in certain circles.

In fact, I think this is why Christianity invented eternal punishment in hell. They started to realize that just plain dying wouldn't be compelling. So instead they invented the concept of "Everlasting Punishment" for those who refuse to comply.

Questions for debate:
What is the Biblical view of hell?
What concepts do we have of hell that are not in the Bible?

[William]

@

AgnosticBoy:I can agree that Hell is not synonymous with the Lake of Fire but that alone does not mean that there's no eternal punishment in the Bible. Instead of using the term "Hell", the biblical writers referred to eternal punishment by describing what the "Lake of Fire" involves in Revelation 20:10. This passage says specifically that the Devil will be tormented there "forever".

John: And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

William: Sounds serious enough. Many think that this book is fully symbolic. It is about The Truth revealing the deception, and thus the deception is thrown away as the rubbish that it is.
In terms of an actual personage being tormented forever, that may be just for show - to remind those who need reminding, that deception has been defeated. Not any actual persons but effigies representing how human beings delighted in personifying good and evil.

Some folk need to see evidence of Justice being carried out and will settle for no less, so it is for those folk that the deception remains in the Lake of Fire, and those who want to will be rewarded with hearing and seeing The Devils torment forevermore.


Others have better things to do with their afterlife than actually believe some actual GOD would actually do something like that to any of His Creations. He will gladly allow it to take place for any creations which are not His.

[William]

@

shnarkle: I find it amazing how someone can come to the conclusion that it is some sort of obvious fact that those who are dead are actually alive. Where do people come up with this stuff?

William: Not through seeing it in the Physical Universe. This is all about the Metaphysical Universe, and people come up with this stuff through their own experiences and/or the experiences others say they have had.
Jesus is said to have instructed his Disciples in the knowledge of the Metaphysical Universe, which he called "The Knowledge of The Secrets of the Kingdom of Heaven"
Modern day folk know this as "Astral Travelling" or "Mentally Ill", depending on the nature of their positions of opinion.
I have had some experiences to do with the Metaphysical Universe and from that, it is my opinion that it is able to be experienced by the individual as real.
I also get the impression that any Universe one happens to be experiencing for any length of time, would likely be considered as "the only thing that is real" if no other Universes were experienced by the individual...which in turn... makes me wonder if this Physical Universe is really real, or a simulation I am in which allows for me to experiences it as real.
Not that it would matter either way as it is only to be experienced as real for a relatively short time anyway...if anything happens after that, I feel I am prepared enough to deal with that then...

[otseng]

I'd like to start with what the Old Testament says.

I could be wrong, but it's my understanding that the Jews don't believe in hell. It's my understanding that the concept of hell was introduced by Jesus in the New Testament in verses along the lines of those I previously posted. I believe there are other references that Jesus made along these lines as well.

Therefore going back to the Old Testament looking for references to hell would be irrelevant since the original Jews didn't believe in a hell. Hell is a concept that Jesus made up apparently. Jesus is the one who introduced that concept of hell as a place of eternal torment and suffering. Where the "worm" never dies.

I'll eventually get to what the New Testament says about hell, but it's best to start with an understanding of the Old Testament.

For Jewish beliefs on the afterlife, they seem to be ambivalent/agnostic. Though they believe in the afterlife, they do not claim much.

What happens after we die? Judaism is famously ambiguous about this matter. The immortality of the soul, the World to Come, and the resurrection of the dead all feature prominently in Jewish tradition, but exactly what these things are and how they relate to each other has always been vague.

Indeed, the notion of heaven and hell may be the most ambiguous of all Jewish afterlife ideas.

https://www.myjewishlearning.com/articl ... ter-death/

Traditional Judaism firmly believes that death is not the end of human existence. However, because Judaism is primarily focused on life here and now rather than on the afterlife, Judaism does not have much dogma about the afterlife, and leaves a great deal of room for personal opinion. It is possible for an Orthodox Jew to believe that the souls of the righteous dead go to a place similar to the Christian heaven, or that they are reincarnated through many lifetimes, or that they simply wait until the coming of the messiah, when they will be resurrected. Likewise, Orthodox Jews can believe that the souls of the wicked are tormented by demons of their own creation, or that wicked souls are simply destroyed at death, ceasing to exist.

http://www.jewfaq.org/olamhaba.htm

Olam ha­Ba (afterlife) is rarely discussed in Jewish life, be it among Reform, Conservative, or Orthodox Jews.

Jewish teachings on the subject of afterlife are sparse: The Torah, the most important Jewish text, has no clear reference to afterlife at all.

Because Judaism believes that God is good, it believes that God rewards good people; it does not believe that Adolf Hitler and his victims share the same fate. Beyond that, it is hard to assume much more. We are asked to leave afterlife in God's hands.

https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/af ... in-judaism

[shnarkle]

I think Adam is having an identity crises. He thinks he is separate from God, but he is the very image of God. I think the fall is simply this false identity which necessarily dies along with the body.

I'm confused...this read one way seems to make the image of GOD to mean the same as the essence as GOD,

That's not my meaning. The image of God is not the essence of God anymore than the image reflected in a mirror is the essence of what is being reflected. A mirror is a mirror, not the essence of what it reflects.

However, it is a means, and this is what Christ portrays in the gospels. Christ is the mediator. He is the way to God.

... a concept I had to drop many years ago...

I also learned to drop all concepts due to the fact that God is not a concept.

Iow, the person in the image of GOD can indeed be separate from GOD in sin.

I'm not so sure that would work. It's like that physical property by which we see that it is impossible for two separate substances to occupy the same place at the same time.

A person is what is presented to the world, and Christ is the person presented as mediator between God and humanity. He is in the image, but if one is in the image, then they can't be in sin.

[otseng]

Maybe you misunderstood my question, I propose that SHEOL always refers to the ultimate condition all living breathing creatures end up in, "the grave(dom)" ie the common grave of all mankind, not to a specific burial location (tomb) that someone can literally go and stand on.

Are you contesting this point if so, is that contestation based on the above biblical passages?

My position is the word Sheol in the Bible can refer to a physical location (grave, pit), a spiritual location (where all the souls of the dead go to), or used in an idiom (doesn't literally refer to any physical or spiritual location, but is just an expression).

I'm not sure what you mean by Sheol "always refers to the ultimate condition all living breathing creatures end up in."

You said earlier, "When a person dies, they cease to exist and are in the exact same state as they were before they were conceived or created, in short a dead person no longer exists anywhere as a conscious feeling thinking being."
viewtopic.php?p=969967#969967

If that's the case, then there is no afterlife for anyone. Everyone would be buried in the ground and that would be final. Wouldn't that be a literal place that someone could stand on? Or would Sheol simply be a symbolic term and doesn't refer to either a location or condition?

[otseng]

A word closely associated with Sheol is Abaddon, which is translated as destruction.

[Job 26:6 KJV] 6 Hell (Sheol) [is] naked before him, and destruction (Abaddon) hath no covering.

[Pro 15:11 KJV] 11 Hell (Sheol) and destruction (Abaddon) [are] before the LORD: how much more then the hearts of the children of men?

"The Destroyer," from a Hebrew word meaning "destruction." Chief of the demons of the seventh hierarchy. Abaddon is the name given by St. John in the Apocalypse to the king of the grasshoppers. He is sometimes regarded as the destroying angel or prince of the underworld, also synonymous with Apollyon (Rev. 9:11).

https://www.encyclopedia.com/philosophy ... es/abaddon

A Hebrew word meaning "destruction." In poetry it comes to mean ``place of destruction, and so the underworld or Sheol (cf. Job xxvi. 6; Prov. xv. 11). In Rev. ix. 11 Abaddon ((Abaddon) is used of hell personified, the prince of the underworld. The term is here explained as Apollyon, the "destroyer." W. Baudissin (Herzog-Hauck, Realencyklopädie) notes that Hades and Abaddon in Rabbinic writings are employed as personal names, just as shemayya in Dan. iv. 23, shamayim (" heaven"), and makom (" place") among the Rabbins, are used of God.

https://www.studylight.org/encyclopedia ... addon.html

The Hebrew term Abaddon (Hebrew: אֲבַדּוֹן ’Ăḇaddōn, meaning "destruction", "doom"), and its Greek equivalent Apollyon (Koinē Greek: Ἀπολλύων, Apollúōn meaning "Destroyer") appear in the Bible as both a place of destruction and an angel of the abyss. In the Hebrew Bible, abaddon is used with reference to a bottomless pit, often appearing alongside the place Sheol(שְׁאוֹל Šəʾōl), meaning the resting place of dead peoples.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abaddon

[otseng]

Interestingly, many translations do not translate Sheol as hell. Here's the list of Bibles I've found that do not have the word hell in the OT.

AMP - 0
ASV - 0
CEV - 0
CSB - 0
ESV - 0
HCSB - 0
HNV - 0
ISV - 0
LEB - 0
NASB - 0
NET - 0
NIV - 0
RSV - 0
TLV - 0
WEB - 0
YLT - 0

Here are some that do have the word hell:

MEV - 5
NLT - 1
TPT - 14

https://www.biblegateway.com/quicksearc ... earch=hell

[JehovahsWitness]

My position is the word Sheol in the Bible can refer to a physical location (grave, pit)...

Are you suggesting the scriptures you provided is an example of Sheol as a physical location?

[Pro 23:13-14 KJV] 13 Withhold not correction from the child: for [if] thou beatest him with the rod, he shall not die. 14 Thou shalt beat him with the rod, and shalt deliver his soul from hell (Sheol).

[2Sa 22:6 KJV] 6 The sorrows of hell (Sheol) compassed me about; the snares of death prevented me;

Can you explain why you believe these passages refer to a specific tomb at a physical location where the bodyis/will be buried, rather than "the grave" as in the ultimate condition of the death/ gravedom (a symbolic common grave of mankind)?


JW

[JehovahsWitness]

My position is the word Sheol in the Bible can refer to ... an idiom (doesn't literally refer to any physical or spiritual location, but is just an expression).

An idiom of what? Can you provide some examples?


JW

[JehovahsWitness]

You said earlier, "When a person dies, they cease to exist and are in the exact same state as they were before they were conceived or created, in short a dead person no longer exists anywhere as a conscious feeling thinking being."
viewtopic.php?p=969967#969967

If that's the case, then there is no afterlife for anyone.

That is exactly right... there is no such thing as an "afterlife". After life is an oxymoron, after life there is nothing. We call that nothing "death". Humans do not continue to live in any form after they die they don't exist after they die (and obviously they can't suffer pain of be tortured if they don't exist any more)



JW

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