What is the Biblical view of hell?

[otseng]

The concept of Hell is one of the many unmarketable, embarrassingly unbelievable religious concepts that has been recently swept under the altar in the severely diluted quasi-belief system that passes for Christianity in certain circles.

In fact, I think this is why Christianity invented eternal punishment in hell. They started to realize that just plain dying wouldn't be compelling. So instead they invented the concept of "Everlasting Punishment" for those who refuse to comply.

Questions for debate:
What is the Biblical view of hell?
What concepts do we have of hell that are not in the Bible?

[JehovahsWitness]

I'm not sure what you mean by Sheol "always refers to the ultimate condition all living breathing creatures end up in."

You said earlier, "When a person dies, they cease to exist and are in the exact same state as they were before they were conceived or created, in short a dead person no longer exists anywhere as a conscious feeling thinking being."
viewtopic.php?p=969967#969967

If that's the case, then there is no afterlife for anyone. Everyone would be buried in the ground and that would be final. Wouldn't that be a literal place that someone could stand on? Or would Sheol simply be a symbolic term and doesn't refer to either a location or condition?

IS SHEOL A LITERAL LOCATION THAT ONE COULD FIND ON A WORLD MAP?


No, it's not a place, is a symbol. A symbol of what? It's a symbol of the condition of the dead. Everyone that is dead is in a state of non-existence, all dead people are in the same condition, so they are spoken of symbolically as being "in" sheol. You cannot find sheol and dig it up, you can find an individual literal grave and stand on it but sheol is a symbolic grave which cannot be found on any map. People that die at sea, people whose bodies are cremated and the ashes scattered over a wide area, people for whom there is no literal grave (tomb) are still in this symbolic "universal grave of mankind" because they to are dead.



JW




RELATED POSTS


What is "SHEOL" (bible "hell")?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 970#969970

Why would demons pretend to be dead people?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 472#927472

[JehovahsWitness]

Ps 9:17 The wicked will return to Sheol—all the nations who forget God. which implies they came from there to live ON the earth

QUESTION Does Psalms 9:17 (see above)imply the wicked had a prehuman existence?

• ♦ANSWER No, the Hebrew word shuwb, translated in some bible's as "return" can also mean retreat. Note what Strongs #7725 concordance has to say...
  

  to turn back (hence, away) transitively or intransitively, literally or figuratively (not necessarily with the idea of return to the starting point); generally to retreat
  
  Source: http://www.htmlbible.com/sacrednamebibl ... .htm#S7725

Thus the Psalmist is more logically refering to the wicked, like an advancing army, being forced into retreat and ultimately ending up defeated in sheol (the grave).





JW



RELATED POSTS

Does Romans 1:20 support the idea of all humans havjng a prehuman existence?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 628#828628

Does Colossians 1:23 support the idea of all humans havjng a prehuman existence?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 637#828637

[otseng]

My position is the word Sheol in the Bible can refer to a physical location (grave, pit)...

Are you suggesting the scriptures you provided is an example of Sheol as a physical location?

I provided an example in post 39:
viewtopic.php?p=970052#970052

[Num 16:32-33 KJV] 32 And the earth opened her mouth, and swallowed them up, and their houses, and all the men that [appertained] unto Korah, and all [their] goods. 33 They, and all that [appertained] to them, went down alive into the pit (Sheol), and the earth closed upon them: and they perished from among the congregation.

My position is the word Sheol in the Bible can refer to ... an idiom (doesn't literally refer to any physical or spiritual location, but is just an expression).

An idiom of what? Can you provide some examples?

I provided some in post 30:
viewtopic.php?p=970039#970039

[Pro 23:13-14 KJV] 13 Withhold not correction from the child: for [if] thou beatest him with the rod, he shall not die. 14 Thou shalt beat him with the rod, and shalt deliver his soul from hell (Sheol).

Should we interpret this to mean disciplining a child would prevent him from literally going to hell? I see it more as an expression. Just like if someone tells me to "go to hell", it's not that he's literally commanding me to go to hell, but it's more expressing his feelings in an idiom that we all understand.

Another example,

[2Sa 22:6 KJV] 6 The sorrows of hell (Sheol) compassed me about; the snares of death prevented me;

Was David literally in hell? No, rather it's an expression to describe the level of grief that David felt.

[otseng]

I think we can all agree Sheol is not similar to the New Testament concept of hell, whether you believe in the afterlife or not.

People may agree on all or some of the following:
- All people go to Sheol
- There is no judgment of the dead
- There is no punishment of the dead
- Sheol can refer to a physical location (grave, pit), a spiritual location (where all the souls of the dead go to), or used in an idiom (doesn't literally refer to any physical or spiritual location, but is just an expression).

[JehovahsWitness]

[Pro 23:13-14 KJV] 13 Withhold not correction from the child: for [if] thou beatest him with the rod, he shall not die. 14 Thou shalt beat him with the rod, and shalt deliver his soul from hell (Sheol).

[2Sa 22:6 KJV] 6 The sorrows of hell (Sheol) compassed me about; the snares of death prevented me;

So you purpose the references to sheol is an "idiomatic expression" representing what?

... just an expression

Yes, sheol is "just an expression" communicating what?

There are no expressions in the bible that have no meaning, so if sheol in Prov 23:13-14 and 2 Sam 22:6 is an idiomatic reference to something, I'm just asking what that "something" is... [ oranges? Marriage? High speed intercontinental travel?... what?!]

JW

[JehovahsWitness]

Are you suggesting the scriptures you provided is an example of Sheol as a physical location?

[Num 16:32-33 KJV] 32 And the earth opened her mouth, and swallowed them up, and their houses, and all the men that [appertained] unto Korah, and all [their] goods. 33 They, and all that [appertained] to them, went down alive into the pit (Sheol), and the earth closed upon them: and they perished from among the congregation.

Is there a reason the reference to sheol in the scripture above cannot be speaking about people falling into casms opened up by an earthquake and as a result dying and "going" to ...."the common grave of mankind" , the symbolic "place of the dead" ? In short because they fell into a literal hole they died and went to the symbolic "land of the dead" not a literal location but a symbolic condition we usually call "being a dead person" (referred to as "sheol" "the pit" or "hell")?

Sheol can refer to a physical location (grave, pit)...

This has yet to be proven (see above)




JW

Go to other posts related to...

RESURRECTIONS, HELL and ... THE CONDITION OF THE DEAD

[JehovahsWitness]

I think we can all agree Sheol is not similar to the New Testament concept of hell, whether you believe in the afterlife or not.

Your are wrong we cannot all agree Sheol is not similar to the New Testament concept of "hell", if by "we" you are referring specifically to those participating in this thread.

I for one believe that SHEOL in the Hebrew bible is exactly the equivalent to the bible "New testament" reference to "hades" (hell) , namely the symbolic grave of mankind.

JW

[JehovahsWitness]

Do all people go to Sheol?

• Yes, at least all from Adam to the present. While death reigns as king, all humans will end in a state of non-existence in "the grave"

Is there a judgment of the dead?

• Yes, God can judge anyone, at any time. Being just he does so on the basis of what they did during their lives. He can pronounce a verdict after a person's death or while that one is alive.

Is there is no punishment of the dead?

• Death is of itself a punishment. Perpetual death, ie death without any hope of a ressurection is a verdict that can be handed down to a person of extreme wickedness. That verdict can be pronounced while they are alive (jugement of the living) or after they have died (jugdement of the dead).

JW

[shnarkle]

You said earlier, "When a person dies, they cease to exist and are in the exact same state as they were before they were conceived or created, in short a dead person no longer exists anywhere as a conscious feeling thinking being."
viewtopic.php?p=969967#969967

If that's the case, then there is no afterlife for anyone.

Not necessarily. There are those who point to the resurrection from the dead occurring sometime later at the Judgment.

Everyone would be buried in the ground and that would be final.

I suspect JW wouldn't use the term "everyone", but instead would use the term "every body". I think this is the distinction that is being presented which you might not be picking up on. Every one, or every individual consists of "the breath of life" which is animating a body formed from dirt. When the life that animates the body "returns to God who gave it", the body is now lifeless. It is no longer an individual person, but has instantly become lifeless dirt again.

We may identify the body as belonging to someone, but it doesn't belong to them at all. Even while we are alive, Paul points out:

your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own?"(1.Cor.6:19)

So Paul clearly sees the body as some THING (the Holy Spirit's temple) which houses the Holy Spirit, and who we are is not something we possess. Nor does the Holy Spirit possess us.

[AgnosticBoy]

William said...
Sounds serious enough. Many think that this book is fully symbolic. It is about The Truth revealing the deception, and thus the deception is thrown away as the rubbish that it is.
In terms of an actual personage being tormented forever, that may be just for show - to remind those who need reminding, that deception has been defeated. Not any actual persons but effigies representing how human beings delighted in personifying good and evil.

Some folk need to see evidence of Justice being carried out and will settle for no less, so it is for those folk that the deception remains in the Lake of Fire, and those who want to will be rewarded with hearing and seeing The Devils torment forevermore.


Others have better things to do with their afterlife than actually believe some actual GOD would actually do something like that to any of His Creations. He will gladly allow it to take place for any creations which are not His.

….
I agree that Revelations can not be taken literally in all cases otherwise we'd have to believe 7 headed dragons coming out of the sea. But some parts are literal or explained as such. We can also look to other areas of the Bible that corroborates John's message regarding an "eternal fire".

Matthew 25:41
41 “Then He will also say to those on His left, ‘Depart from Me, accursed ones, into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels;