What is the Biblical view of hell?

[otseng]

The concept of Hell is one of the many unmarketable, embarrassingly unbelievable religious concepts that has been recently swept under the altar in the severely diluted quasi-belief system that passes for Christianity in certain circles.

In fact, I think this is why Christianity invented eternal punishment in hell. They started to realize that just plain dying wouldn't be compelling. So instead they invented the concept of "Everlasting Punishment" for those who refuse to comply.

Questions for debate:
What is the Biblical view of hell?
What concepts do we have of hell that are not in the Bible?

[otseng]

[Replying to post 86 by otseng]

So what are your conclusions?

I have outlined the exact biblical meaning of each word in context, along with how each word relates to each other. Do you feel ready to do the same?

I have no conclusion yet. I'm trying to maintain an open mind and look at all the facts and reason through the evidence. There is still yet many things to consider before any conclusion can be reached.

[otseng]

There are some other terms related to hell, but are not translated as hell - lake of fire, bottomless pit, abyss, and outer darkness.

Lake of fire is mentioned 5 times in the book of Revelation.

The beast and the false prophet are cast into it.

[Rev 19:20 KJV] 20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.

The devil is cast into it and tormented forever.

[Rev 20:10 KJV] 10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet [are], and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

Death and hell (Hades) are cast into it.

[Rev 20:14 KJV] 14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

Those not found in the book of life are cast into it.

[Rev 20:15 KJV] 15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

Certain sinners are cast into it.

[Rev 21:8 KJV] 8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

JehovahsWitness' post on the lake of fire:
viewtopic.php?p=337866#337866

[ttruscott]

So if it's a place (a geographical location) how does it get excited? Isn't that like your backyard falling in love? Or your kitchen getting angry?JW

By use of the figure of speech called metony: the substitution of the name of an attribute or adjunct for that of the thing meant, for example suit for business executive, or the track for horse racing.

[otseng]

Bottomless pit is mentioned 7 times in the book of Revelation.

It mentions key of the bottomless pit twice.

[Rev 9:1 KJV] 1 And the fifth angel sounded, and I saw a star fall from heaven unto the earth: and to him was given the key of the bottomless pit.

[Rev 20:1 KJV] 1 And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.

Abaddon (Apollyon) is the angel of the bottomless pit.

[Rev 9:11 KJV] 11 And they had a king over them, [which is] the angel of the bottomless pit, whose name in the Hebrew tongue [is] Abaddon, but in the Greek tongue hath [his] name Apollyon.

The beast came out of the bottomless pit.

[Rev 11:7 KJV] 7 And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them.

[Rev 17:8 KJV] 8 The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.

The devil is cast into the bottomless pit.

[Rev 20:2-3 KJV] 2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years, 3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.

The Greek word used for the bottomless pit is "abyssos".
https://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/le ... =G12&t=KJV

"Abyssos" is also translated "deep".

[Luk 8:31 KJV] 31 And they besought him that he would not command them to go out into the deep.

[Rom 10:7 KJV] 7 Or, Who shall descend into the deep? (that is, to bring up Christ again from the dead.)

[otseng]

Outer darkness is mentioned 3 times in Matthew. Weeping and gnashing of teeth is also mentioned in the 3 verses.

[Mat 8:12 KJV] 12 But the children of the kingdom shall be cast out into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

[Mat 22:13 KJV] 13 Then said the king to the servants, Bind him hand and foot, and take him away, and cast [him] into outer darkness; there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

[Mat 25:30 KJV] 30 And cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Outer_darkness

[otseng]

the concept of eternal punishment is still mentioned in the Bible in my opinion.

I could only find one reference to eternal punishment in the Bible (KJV). And the context of it applies to those who do not take care of the hungry, thirsty, strangers, naked, sick, and prisoners.

[Mat 25:44-46 KJV] 44 Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee? 45 Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did [it] not to one of the least of these, ye did [it] not to me. 46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

I expanded the search to verses on torment and found two passages.

Those who worship the beast will be tormented. Though it's not clear it would be eternal, only the smoke is said to rise for ever.

[Rev 14:9-11 KJV] 9 And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive [his] mark in his forehead, or in his hand, 10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb: 11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.

Rich man was in torment in hell (Hades), though it's not clear this is eternal either.

[Luk 16:23 KJV] 23 And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.

If we expand it further to eternal fire, those who give over to fornication (ekporneu�) and after strange flesh will suffer eternal fire. But, it's not clear this is some kind of eternal torment, but destruction.

[Jde 1:7 KJV] 7 Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.

[JehovahsWitness]

So if it's a place (a geographical location) how does it get excited? Isn't that like your backyard falling in love? Or your kitchen getting angry?JW

By use of the figure of speech called metony: the substitution of the name of an attribute or adjunct for that of the thing meant, for example suit for business executive, or the track for horse racing.

My point exactly, so if the writer is using a figure of speech (ie not speaking literally) in the first clause is it not reasonable to believe he may also be doing so in the next? Could we not be dealing with poetry, rather than literal scientific description?

In short if "the grave/gravedome" (SHEOL) is liked to a gatekeeper welcoming new arrivals to place of confinement, when in reality it is condition and cannot see, think, speak, or feel; would it not be reasonable to conclude that the writer is using a figure of speech he speaks of dead people (who also in reality cannot see, think, speak, or feel) as gloating at said anew arrival.

One can but ask if those that present ISAIAH 14:9-11 as proof that the dead can gloat, would also present Mary Howitt's famous poem below as proof spiders can speak.

"'Will you walk into my parlour?' said the Spider to the Fly."

Critical thinking skills,


JW

[JehovahsWitness]

[Replying to post 86 by otseng]

So what are your conclusions?

I have outlined the exact biblical meaning of each word in context, along with how each word relates to each other. Do you feel ready to do the same?

I have no conclusion yet. ...

Fair enough, do let us know when you figure something it out.


JW



THE CONDITION OF THE DEAD

What is the condition of the dead according to the bible?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 967#969967

In what sense is there a judgement of the dead ?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 126#970126

Is there such a thing as an "afterlife"?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 112#970112

What does the word HELL mean when seen in the bible?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 970#969970

Is the account of THE WITCH OF ENDOR (1 Sam 28:15) an example of a dead person speaking?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 420#970420

SHEOL

What is "SHEOL" (bible "hell")?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 970#969970

Does SHEOL refer to a literal individual grave (tomb) where a body is buried?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 016#970016

Is SHEOL ever refered to as being at a literal location?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 114#970114

Does the Psalms 9:17 reference to sheol, imply the wicked had a prehuman existence?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 115#970115

Does NUMBERS 16:32, 33 indicate SHEOL is a literal pit/hole in the ground ?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 124#970124

ILLUSTATIVE EXPRESSIONS

What is GEHENNA?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 876#373876

What is THE LAKE OF FIRE?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 866#337866

What is TARTARUS? (Tim16)
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 351#970351

[ttruscott]

QUESTION Does Psalms 9:17 (see above) imply the wicked had a prehuman existence?


♦ANSWER No, the Hebrew word shuwb, translated in some bible's as "return" can also mean retreat. Note what Strongs #7725 concordance has to say...

The word can be indeed interpreted in English as return or retreat.
RETURN: Strong's Concordance H7725. shub: to turn back (retreat), return.

From this I find the kjv et al who, in an effort to avoid all implication of a going back to where one was before by being compelled or by retreat it, contend it means to turn into as if into a new place, to be intentionally misleading.

I do not offer Ps 9:17 as a proof verse of our pre-earth existence because I contend that there is no proof for any particular meaning of any verse in the Bible, that is, all verses can be interpreted to mean something else than what someone else, even GOD, thinks it means...every verse!

So I offer it as a seldom seen interpretation (since the KJV is the most popular bible and is blatantly lying about the meaning) of the word. Of course since it can just as easily mean return as retreat it indeed can be righteously accepted as implying our pre-earth existence in Sheol or at least the pre-earth existence of the wicked.

I know about the JW denial of our spirits as the ghost in our bodily machines and that JWs contend for Sheol being only the grave, but I wonder at the concept of a dead body being put into a grave being called a retreat...? This is a new concept to me. Hmmm...

Is there any mitigating explanation I'm missing?

[JehovahsWitness]

I wonder at the concept of a dead body being put into a grave being called a retreat...?

So do I. Have you ever come across anyone that suggests the above?


JW