What is the Biblical view of hell?

[otseng]

The concept of Hell is one of the many unmarketable, embarrassingly unbelievable religious concepts that has been recently swept under the altar in the severely diluted quasi-belief system that passes for Christianity in certain circles.

In fact, I think this is why Christianity invented eternal punishment in hell. They started to realize that just plain dying wouldn't be compelling. So instead they invented the concept of "Everlasting Punishment" for those who refuse to comply.

Questions for debate:
What is the Biblical view of hell?
What concepts do we have of hell that are not in the Bible?

[onewithhim]

[Mat 10:28 KJV] 28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

When the person dies, everything about him is remembered by God, and He will resurrect this person at a future date. The BODY is merely the physical body of the person, which CAN be killed and/or destroyed. The SOUL cannot be destroyed by other humans because God remembers this person, and all of his attributes. He, God, has the ability to bring that person back, and He can decline to bring a person back if He so chooses.

I don't understand here. Are you saying when a person dies, the soul is simply a memory of the complete physicial form of the person's body in the mind of God? If so, what does it mean that God would destroy the soul in hell? That God would no longer remember him and wipe him from his memory?

Isn't this exactly what I have been saying?

That's why I said:

"I think we can all agree Sheol is not similar to the New Testament concept of hell, whether you believe in the afterlife or not."

Yes, that is right. When a person is dead and returns eventually to dust, he is remembered by God, even though his body has disintegrated. His "soul," or, everything about that person, is remembered by God and can bring that person back.

Didn't you feel compelled at all to do some research on "Hell" and "Gehenna"? Don't you realize that the Scripture does not read, truthfully, that God will destroy anybody in "Hell"? The word there is GEHENNA, not Hades, but the translators rendered it as "Hell." So, no, God doesn't destroy anyone in Hades/Hell which is THE GRAVE.

God can destroy both body and soul in "Gehenna," meaning that the person, though God can remember him, will be annihilated forever. Nothing will remain of that person.


So....though men may kill a person's body, they cannot kill the soul---the whole person who can be remembered by God and brought back to life. "Soul" in this case means "the life or future life prospects of the dead person.

[otseng]

The word "hell" is believed to originate from the Norse word "Hel".

the word "Hell" in the English language comes from "Hel."

https://www.newworldencyclopedia.org/entry/Hel

The Old Norse feminine proper noun Hel is identical to the name of the location over which she rules, Old Norse Hel. The word has cognates in all branches of the Germanic languages, including Old English hell (and thus Modern English hell), Old Frisian helle, Old Saxon hellia, Old High German hella, and Gothic halja.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hel_(being)

Presumably, hel/helle originally referred to the same kind of Germanic pagan underworld as the Norse Hel, and Christian missionaries to the Anglo-Saxons used the closest word they could find in Old English to refer to Satan’s realm.

https://norse-mythology.org/cosmology/t ... s/helheim/

The English word may be in part from Old Norse mythological Hel

https://www.etymonline.com/word/hell

Hel is described as a cold realm and ruled by a cold female diety (also called Hel).

As a realm, Hel is described as a cold, shadowy place, inhabited by the souls of individuals who died in a so-called 'cowardly manner' (i.e., not in battle). In this way, it can be seen as the polar opposite of Valhalla - Odin's hall of perpetual feasting, whose doors only open for those slain in conflict.

https://www.newworldencyclopedia.org/entry/Hel

The concept of Hel seems to be more like Sheol/Hades.

where one goes after death isn’t any kind of reward for moral behavior or pious belief, or punishment for immoral behavior or impious belief.

It wasn’t a place of eternal bliss or torment as much as it was simply a continuation of life somewhere else.

https://norse-mythology.org/cosmology/t ... s/helheim/

A depiction of Hel by Johannes Gehrts, 1889

[William]

[Replying to post 172 by onewithhim]

That's what I am saying. How can people be comforted being told that their loved ones are dead?

[William]

[Replying to post 170 by onewithhim]

Do you want to converse or not?

Why let someone think you are all for it, and then do a u-turn? How is a person supposed to believe you are being genuine?

[otseng]

Are you saying when a person dies, the soul is simply a memory of the complete physicial form of the person's body in the mind of God? If so, what does it mean that God would destroy the soul in hell? That God would no longer remember him and wipe him from his memory?

Yes, that is right. When a person is dead and returns eventually to dust, he is remembered by God, even though his body has disintegrated. His "soul," or, everything about that person, is remembered by God and can bring that person back.

So a person is purely a materialistic body?
How would your concept of a person differ from an atheistic perspective of a person?
In what state would God restore the person? When she had died? When she was a teenager?

When God created man out of dust, he was not just dust. God also had to breathe in him the breath of life.

[Gen 2:7 KJV] 7 And the LORD God formed man [of] the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

Didn't you feel compelled at all to do some research on "Hell" and "Gehenna"?

Um, what do you think I've been doing?

[JehovahsWitness]

[Replying to post 183 by otseng]

WHY DID THE EARLY ENGLISH BIBLES EQUATE THE WORD HELL WITH THE HEBREW SHEOL?

Although the English word "hell" has come through religious traditions to be associated with fire and agony, the early bible translators knew what they were doing by choosing the old English word "hell" as a translation for the Hebrew "sheol".

“Old English hel, a Teutonic word from a root meaning ‘to cover,’ compare German Hoelle, Dutch hel.� - The Encyclopædia Britannica

“Hell [AS.; akin . . . to Anglo-Saxon helan to conceal, Latin celare, Greek kalyptein, Old Irish celim I conceal, Sanskrit śarman protection. � - Webster’s New International Dictionary, 2d edition, unabridged

(In Old English dialect “helling potatoes� doesnt mean to roast them in fire, but meaning to put them in the ground as a cellar)

NOTE “Hell� corresponds with “Hades�, which means “invisible, obscure, dark�


JW



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What is "bible hell" (sheol/ hades)?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 709#767709

Is "sheol" EVER refered to as a literal location that a person could find on a map?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 114#970114

How is SHEOL different from a literal grave/tomb ? (ttruscott)
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 010#970010

Is having the correct understanding of what happens at death essential to salvation?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 582#970582

Why is there so much confusion as to the condition of the dead?
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[JehovahsWitness]

[2Sa 22:6 KJV] 6 The sorrows of hell (Sheol) compassed me about; the snares of death prevented me;

QUESTION Is 2 Samuel 22:6 an example of the word "sheol" being used as a literal location?

In 2 Samuel 22 David spoke poeticall of "sheol" surrounding him, besieging him, confining his movements . It is unlikely he was literally standing in a tomb at the time, so the question is: Was the imagery here of a literal grave/tomb or of "the common grave of mankind" symbolic of DEATH ?

An interesting feature of Hebrew poetry is using two phrases side by side either to contrast opposes or to emphasize similarities (parallelism). Moving away from the King James Version (because of its unusual translation of the word chebel as "sorrow"), we read in the NAS

The cords of Sheol surrounded me;
The snares of death confronted me;

So the writer parallels "cords" with "snares", "surround" with "confront" and ... SHEOL with DEATH. So if he's drawing synonyms, as he seems to be, then here he is using sheol not as a synonym for a location (he doesn't parallel "sheol" with a pit/a hole in the ground or cave) but of a condition , namely death.

CONCLUSION Even allowing for poetic license, an analysis of 2 Sammuel 22:6 does not present an example of sheol being used as anything other than how it is consistently used in the bible, namely as a symbol of the death common to all humans.

JW


FURTHER READING Major Characteristics of Hebrew Poetry: Parallelism
https://www.biblegateway.com/resources/ ... ics-Hebrew


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Does the Psalms 9:17 reference to sheol, imply the wicked had a prehuman existence?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 115#970115

Does NUMBERS 16:32, 33 indicate SHEOL is a literal pit/hole in the ground ?
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[JehovahsWitness]

So a person is purely a materialistic body?

All of God's physical creatures are more than the sum of their parts. In short once animated, a physical flesh and blood being is more than just a working computer because God has endowed them with the ability to reflect to a greater or lesser degree, divine qualities. No more is this more evident than with humans.

• A human once his brain and body can function is capable of conscious thought, deep feelings, and can grasp conceipts in the abstract. When a human body is animated and functioning it becomes a person, with a mind and an individual personality. That "personality" (and all that involves) is not a separate component inserted into the body, (as if the personality could exist without a body) its a built in feature of a body. When you take the lifeforce out of a body the person dies *(ceases to exist).
  
  
  * Jesus figuratively spoke of the body and the person (soul) separately to highlight that only God can remove a person's right to life

So to answer the question: So a person is purely a materialistic body? The answer is no, a person is a body (materialistic or spiritual) that is ALIVE ie animated with a lifesource aka the "breath of life " that comes from God.

How would your concept of a person differ from an atheistic perspective of a person?

I have no idea what "an atheistic perspective of a person" is. If it's the same as outlined above then that only proves that even a broken clock is right twice a day. That said I doubt if most atheists would accept that all living things are animated with a lifesource that comes from God.





JW



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[Imprecise Interrupt]

[Replying to post 126 by Imprecise Interrupt]

I think I remember that "the right thing" included honoring Jesus as Lord and doing what he said to do. That involves some kind of belief in him. He said:

"You are my friends if you do what I am commanding you." (John 15:14)

• John 13
  34 A new commandment I give to you, that you love one another: just as I have loved you, you also are to love one another.
  
  John 14
  21 Whoever has my commandments and keeps them, he it is who loves me. And he who loves me will be loved by my Father, and I will love him and manifest myself to him.�
  
  John 15
  12 “This is my commandment, that you love one another as I have loved you. 13 Greater love has no one than this, that someone lay down his life for his friends. 14 You are my friends if you do what I command you.

It is love that is the commandment. There is no mention of ‘honoring Lord Jesus’. Love entails action, else what is the point? Jesus laid down his life for mankind because of love. Matthew 19 required loving your neighbor as yourself for eternal life, and has Jesus point away from himself and toward God as the authority for this (V 17). The story of the Sheep and the Goats emphasizes action, even when there is no awareness of any ulterior motive for the action. (“When did we…�) In the story of the Good Samaritan there is no mention of honoring Jesus, only God. Loving your neighbor is all about action.

In John 14:21, the word translated as commandments (�ντολάς) is plural. What commandments (plural) did Jesus give? How about Matthew 19?

[otseng]

The phrase "weeping/wailing and gnashing of teeth" occurs 7 times in the NT. 6 times in Matthew and 1 time in Luke.

[Mat 8:12 KJV] 12 But the children of the kingdom shall be cast out into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

[Mat 13:42 KJV] 42 And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.

[Mat 13:50 KJV] 50 And shall cast them into the furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.

[Mat 22:13 KJV] 13 Then said the king to the servants, Bind him hand and foot, and take him away, and cast [him] into outer darkness; there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

[Mat 24:51 KJV] 51 And shall cut him asunder, and appoint [him] his portion with the hypocrites: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

[Mat 25:30 KJV] 30 And cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

[Luk 13:28 KJV] 28 There shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth, when ye shall see Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, and all the prophets, in the kingdom of God, and you [yourselves] thrust out.

It is uttered only by Jesus. The phrase is all used in a parable with the context of judgment.

Gnashing of teeth is used elsewhere in the Bible:

[Psa 35:16 KJV] 16 With hypocritical mockers in feasts, they gnashed upon me with their teeth.

[Psa 35:16 AMP] Like godless jesters at a feast, They gnashed at me with their teeth [in malice].

Verse does not refer to some kind of torment, but as an expression of anger.

[Act 7:54 KJV] 54 When they heard these things, they were cut to the heart, and they gnashed on him with [their] teeth.

[Act 7:54 AMP] 54 Now when [a]they heard this [accusation and understood its implication], they were cut to the heart, and they began grinding their teeth [in rage] at him.

[Act 7:54 NLT] 54 The Jewish leaders were infuriated by Stephen's accusation, and they shook their fists at him in rage.

Again, this verse uses gnash teeth as an expression of anger.

It's also referenced in Job where God himself gnashes his teeth.

[Job 16:9 KJV] 9 He teareth [me] in his wrath, who hateth me: he gnasheth upon me with his teeth; mine enemy sharpeneth his eyes upon me.

Again, it's used as an expression of anger.

We use the phrase today in a similar way.

gnash your teeth - to show that you are angry or annoyed about something bad that you can do nothing to stop

https://dictionary.cambridge.org/us/dic ... your-teeth

So, the phrase "weeping and gnashing of teeth" would most likely mean extreme sadness and rage.

The weeping and gnashing of teeth is symbolic of utter despair, regret, anger, and uncontrollable rage.

https://www.patheos.com/blogs/christian ... the-bible/

Why would there be sadness and rage? Because the people cast into hell would be disappointed and angry they were not allowed entrance into heaven, but into hell. It is less likely to mean they are crying and expressing agony while suffering torture in hell.