What is the Biblical view of hell?

Exploring the details of Christianity

Moderator: Moderators

Post Reply
User avatar
otseng
Savant
Posts: 20520
Joined: Thu Jan 15, 2004 1:16 pm
Location: Atlanta, GA
Has thanked: 197 times
Been thanked: 337 times
Contact:

What is the Biblical view of hell?

Post #1

Post by otseng »

SallyF wrote: The concept of Hell is one of the many unmarketable, embarrassingly unbelievable religious concepts that has been recently swept under the altar in the severely diluted quasi-belief system that passes for Christianity in certain circles.
Divine Insight wrote: In fact, I think this is why Christianity invented eternal punishment in hell. They started to realize that just plain dying wouldn't be compelling. So instead they invented the concept of "Everlasting Punishment" for those who refuse to comply.
Questions for debate:
What is the Biblical view of hell?
What concepts do we have of hell that are not in the Bible?

User avatar
JehovahsWitness
Savant
Posts: 21137
Joined: Wed Sep 29, 2010 6:03 am
Has thanked: 794 times
Been thanked: 1123 times
Contact:

Post #251

Post by JehovahsWitness »

[Replying to post 190 by otseng]


TEETH GNASHING: FOR THE LIVING OR FOR THE DEAD?

Favoured passages of those that wish to use the bible to support the teaching of eternal torture of the dead, are Jesus references to "weeping and gnashing of teeth". The phrase "weeping/wailing and gnashing of teeth" occurs 7 times in the Christian Greek scriptures. 6 times in Matthew and 1 time in Luke. Does the context of any of these occurance impose or even imply that this occurs after death in SHEOL (the common grave of mankind)? In short did Jesus ever say the dead will "gnash their teeth"?

Let's look at the 7 instances Jesus used the expression and see what conclusions can reasonably be drawn. Firstly, what are the commonalities?
  • All the Jesus uses of this expression are done within the context of illustrations and none arise from a discussion of the condition of the dead. In Matthew 8, Jesus is commending a gentile for his faith and lamenting on his fellow Israelites lack of faith, and in chapter 13 he's discussing the work of preaching the God's kingdom message (while alive on earth). In Matthew 22 he is dealing with the invitation God extends to be in the kingdom and in 25nthe commission to work hard for kingdom interests before his (Christ's) return for inspection
    While they are all connected in some way with judgment and subsequent punishment, none indicate that punishment is execution, indeed the word, death or killed is never mentioned in connection with "gnashing of teeth", they are all however RELATED to a person's reaction to witnessing his lost privileges going to others. That reaction being anger, regret and frustration.
.

One other common factor in all the occurrences relate to sorting out and dismissjng those not meeting a required standard. In short the "weeping and gnashing of teeth" is a reaction, not to being subjected to some physical punishment, but rather a reaction to being rejected.
- In Matthew 8:12 and Luke 13:28 Jesus in figurative language contrasts an invitation to recline at the (heavenly) "table of Abraham" with "outer darkness" where there is "weeping and gnashing of teeth".

- In Matthew 13:42 , 50 Jesus is giving an illustrations likening the wicked to weeds (42) and bad fish (50). that are rejected and thrown into a firey furnace where there is "weeping and gnashing of teeth". While the righteous "shine" or are collected together in reciprocals.

- Matthew 22:13 is the illustration of the Wedding feast where those not suitably dressed are thrown out of the reception.

-Matthew 24 and 25 Jesus gives illustrations contrasting good slaves with bad. Hardworking slaves are given further funds (talents) to trade with, while a "lazy slave" loses those he had and is thrown out of the house (Matthew 25:30 ). An "evil slave" who mistreat his fellow slaves is punished with being assigned a place with hypocrite ( Matthew 24:51.
Could it not be that Jesus was commenting, not on what will be done to the wicked after they die but rather how they will feel being exposed as feuds and hypocrite while they are alive ?


A SIGN OF FRUSTRATION AND ANGER OR A REATION TO BEING PHYSICALLY TORTURED?


ALWAYS USED TO REPRESENT THE FEELINGS OF THE LIVING

Jesus would have been familiar with the Hebrew usage of this expression. Note that in the Hebrew bible "gnashing teeth" is never used to describe the actions if the dead or indeed to describe abject agony as a result of being subject to some kind of physical torture.
[Psa 35:16 KJV] 16 With hypocritical mockers in feasts, they gnashed upon me with their teeth.

[Psa 35:16 AMP] Like godless jesters at a feast, They gnashed at me with their teeth [in malice].
Note how Christian bible writers used the expression; it is the individual gnashing their teeth that is furious, angry, hurt (not hurt in regretful repentance but deeply affected) and frustrated.


[Act 7:54 NIV] When the members of the Sanhedrin heard this, they were furious and gnashed their teeth at him

Image
The newly organized Christians were announcing to the world that the religious leaders they were not God's people any more. The reaction of being thus accused was anger was so profound they were described as grinding or gnashing their teeth, not because the Christians were beating them, hurting them physically or inflicting any physical punishment but because they did not like what they were hearing. their pain was entirely emotional and none of them were dead at the time.
CONCLUSION "Weeping and gnashing of teeth" is not biblically linked to some kind of "afterlife" of unfathomable physical agony, but is traditionally used to describe the feelings of anger and frustration while very much alive. In this light and given that Jesus never explicitly linked the expression to dead people, it seems reasonable to conclude he was describing the reaction of wicked people (while alive in this physical world) to being rejected and judged as unworthy to some kind of reward or privilege. Indeed in this light the parable of the rich man and Lazarus might well be better understood.


JEHOVAH'S WITNESS




RELATED POSTS: Poetry, Allegory & Symbolism
Could the DEATH of the Rich man in Jesus parable be illustrating something about life?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 77#p971077

Is FIRE used figuratively to represent the literal torture of humans after they die?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 45#p970945

Did Jesus did not teach eternal suffering in hell?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 52#p844052

What is the "LAKE OF FIRE"?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 66#p337866

Is Isaiah 14:9-11 biblical proof that the dead can speak?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 12#p970412
Last edited by JehovahsWitness on Sat Dec 26, 2020 4:22 am, edited 1 time in total.
INDEX: More bible based ANSWERS
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 81#p826681


"For if we live, we live to Jehovah, and if we die, we die to Jehovah. So both if we live and if we die, we belong to Jehovah" -
Romans 14:8

User avatar
marco
Savant
Posts: 12314
Joined: Sun Dec 20, 2015 3:15 pm
Location: Scotland
Been thanked: 2 times

Post #252

Post by marco »

JehovahsWitness wrote:
All the Jesus uses of this expression are done within the context of illustrations and none arise from a discussion of the condition of the dead.



Since you don't accept that souls of the dead are placed in heaven or hell, then you must attach Christ's words to living folk, which of course makes no sense. The story of the tormented rich man has its context in the afterlife but you prefer to ignore the stated context.

JehovahsWitness wrote:

death or killed is never mentioned in connection with "gnashing of teeth", they are all however RELATED to a person's reaction to witnessing his lost privileges going to others. That reaction being anger, regret and frustration.



This is a silly explanation. If the evil among us discover that there's no torture, just endless sleep, I hardly suppose they will gnash their teeth and weep in frustration. The notoriously evil monsters through the centuries would find eternal rest an unexpected reward.

Incidentally, if we are dealing in definitions, "gnashing" can be done in PAIN, suggesting torture or punishment. But I suppose one can summon biblical statistics to one's aid in finding the shade of meaning one requires.

JehovahsWitness wrote:
the illustration of the Wedding feast where those not suitably dressed are thrown out of the reception.


They are incomprehensibly bound hand and foot, which suggests violence. It is an art to be able to take words that obviously refer to extreme punishment and reduce them to frustration felt at not being allowed to eat at the banquet. As I said, relief rather than frustration and indignation would be the reaction of most murderers and monsters. Jesus seems to have thought a millstone round their neck would have been better than what awaits but you believe all that happens is uninterrupted slumber. I wonder who is right.

User avatar
onewithhim
Savant
Posts: 9025
Joined: Sat Oct 31, 2015 7:56 pm
Location: Norwich, CT
Has thanked: 1228 times
Been thanked: 313 times

Post #253

Post by onewithhim »

JehovahsWitness wrote: [Replying to post 190 by otseng]


TEETH GNASHING: FOR THE LIVING OR FOR THE DEAD?

Favoured passages of those that wish to use the bible to support the teaching of eternal torture of the dead, are Jesus references to "weeping and gnashing of teeth". The phrase "weeping/wailing and gnashing of teeth" occurs 7 times in the Christian Greek scriptures. 6 times in Matthew and 1 time in Luke. Does the context of any of these occurance impose or even imply that this occurs after death in SHEOL (the common grave of mankind)? In short did Jesus ever say the dead will "gnash their teeth"?

Let's look at the 7 instances Jesus used the expression and see what conclusions can reasonably be drawn. Firstly, what are the commonalities?
  • All the Jesus uses of this expression are done within the context of illustrations and none arise from a discussion of the condition of the dead. In Matthew 8, Jesus is commending a gentile for his faith and lamenting on his fellow Israelites lack of faith, and in chapter 13 he's discussing the work of preaching the God's kingdom message (while alive on earth). In Matthew 22 he is dealing with the invitation God extends to be in the kingdom and in 25nthe commission to work hard for kingdom interests before his (Christ's) return for inspection
    While they are all connected in some way with judgment and subsequent punishment, none indicate that punishment is execution, indeed the word, death or killed is never mentioned in connection with "gnashing of teeth", they are all however RELATED to a person's reaction to witnessing his lost privileges going to others. That reaction being anger, regret and frustration.
.

One other common factor in all the occurrences relate to sorting out and dismissjng those not meeting a required standard. In short the "weeping and gnashing of teeth" is a reaction, not to being subjected to some physical punishment, but rather a reaction to being rejected.
- In Matthew 8:12 and Luke 13:28 Jesus in figurative language contrasts an invitation to recline at the (heavenly) "table of Abraham" with "outer darkness" where there is "weeping and gnashing of teeth".

- In Matthew 13:42 , 50 Jesus is giving an illustrations likening the wicked to weeds (42) and bad fish (50). that are rejected and thrown into a firey furnace where there is "weeping and gnashing of teeth". While the righteous "shine" or are collected together in reciprocals.

- Matthew 22:13 is the illustration of the Wedding feast where those not suitably dressed are thrown out of the reception.

-Matthew 24 and 25 Jesus gives illustrations contrasting good slaves with bad. Hardworking slaves are given further funds (talents) to trade with, while a "lazy slave" loses those he had and is thrown out of the house (Matthew 25:30 ). An "evil slave" who mistreat his fellow slaves is punished with being assigned a place with hypocrite ( Matthew 24:51.
Could it not be that Jesus was commenting, not on what will be done to the wicked after they die but rather how they will feel being exposed as feuds and hypocrite while they are alive ?


A SIGN OF FRUSTRATION AND ANGER OR A REATION TO BEING PHYSICALLY TORTURED?


ALWAYS USED TO REPRESENT THE FEELINGS OF THE LIVING

Jesus would have been familiar with the Hebrew usage of this expression. Note that in the Hebrew bible "gnashing teeth" is never used to describe the actions if the dead or indeed to describe abject agony as a result of being subject to some kind of physical torture.
[Psa 35:16 KJV] 16 With hypocritical mockers in feasts, they gnashed upon me with their teeth.

[Psa 35:16 AMP] Like godless jesters at a feast, They gnashed at me with their teeth [in malice].
Note how Christian bible writers used the expression; it is the individual gnashing their teeth that is furious, angry, hurt (not hurt in regretful repentance but deeply affected) and frustrated.


[Act 7:54 NIV] When the members of the Sanhedrin heard this, they were furious and gnashed their teeth at him

Image
The newly organized Christians were announcing to the world that the religious leaders they were not God's people any more. The reaction of being thus accused was anger was so profound they were described as grinding or gnashing their teeth, not because the Christians were beating them, hurting them physically or inflicting any physical punishment but because they did not like what they were hearing. their pain was entirely emotional and none of them were dead at the time.
CONCLUSION "Weeping and gnashing of teeth" is not biblically linked to some kind of "afterlife" of unfathomable physical agony, but is traditionally used to describe the feelings of anger and frustration while very much alive. In this light and given that Jesus never explicitly linked the expression to dead people, it seems reasonable to conclude he was describing the reaction of wicked people (while alive in this physical world) to being rejected and judged as unworthy to some kind of reward or privilege. Indeed in this light the parable of the rich man and Lazarus might well be better understood.


JEHOVAH'S WITNESS




RELATED POSTS: Poetry, Allegory & Symbolism
Could the DEATH of the Rich man in Jesus parable be illustrating something about life?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 077#971077

Is FIRE used figuratively to represent the literal torture of humans after they die?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 945#970945

Did Jesus did not teach eternal suffering in hell?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 052#844052

What is the "LAKE OF FIRE"?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 866#337866

Is Isaiah 14:9-11 biblical proof that the dead can speak?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 412#970412
Very fine reasoning! I have to say.....anyone who wants good answers to the subject of living after you die, will appreciate your post and even click on the links you provide. It is so clear that "the lake of fire" is HYPERBOLE, ALLEGORICAL, SYMBOLIC.....that it can't be escaped. People say that the Revelation is a symbolic book, yet they insist that the lake of fire is literal. I haven't had anyone answer yet my question: How can "hell" be thrown into "hell"? (Rev.20:14) Then the next question is: How can "death" be thrown anywhere? How do you throw death?

User avatar
JehovahsWitness
Savant
Posts: 21137
Joined: Wed Sep 29, 2010 6:03 am
Has thanked: 794 times
Been thanked: 1123 times
Contact:

Post #254

Post by JehovahsWitness »

onewithhim wrote:

It is so clear that "the lake of fire" is HYPERBOLE, ALLEGORICAL, SYMBOLIC.....that it can't be escaped. People say that the Revelation is a symbolic book, yet they insist that the lake of fire is literal. I haven't had anyone answer yet my question: How can "hell" be thrown into "hell"? (Rev.20:14) Then the next question is: How can "death" be thrown anywhere? How do you throw death?

I wouldn't hold my breath on that. It might be difficult to explain how "hell" and "death" are tortured.






JW


What is the "LAKE OF FIRE"?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 866#337866

So-called support texts for "hellfire": Questions for critical thinkers?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 932#841932
INDEX: More bible based ANSWERS
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 81#p826681


"For if we live, we live to Jehovah, and if we die, we die to Jehovah. So both if we live and if we die, we belong to Jehovah" -
Romans 14:8

User avatar
marco
Savant
Posts: 12314
Joined: Sun Dec 20, 2015 3:15 pm
Location: Scotland
Been thanked: 2 times

Post #255

Post by marco »

JehovahsWitness wrote:
onewithhim wrote:

It is so clear that "the lake of fire" is HYPERBOLE, ALLEGORICAL, SYMBOLIC.....that it can't be escaped. People say that the Revelation is a symbolic book, yet they insist that the lake of fire is literal. I haven't had anyone answer yet my question: How can "hell" be thrown into "hell"? (Rev.20:14) Then the next question is: How can "death" be thrown anywhere? How do you throw death?

I wouldn't hold my breath on that. It might be difficult to explain how "hell" and "death" are tortured.

Perhaps the problem is a misunderstanding of literary terms. Hyperbole is using exaggeration in order to communicate some truth. When Christ says "forgive seventy times seven" he is using a hyperbolic expression to illustrate the truth of what he's recommending. Lady macbeth says: "All the perfumes of Arabia could not sweeten this hand." This is hyperbole, directed at how foul her deed was. The lake of fire is certainly figurative and if hyperbole is being used it must be to communicate the truth around the awful punishment. Otherwise hyperbole is being misunderstood.

As for death being tortured, presumably its "sting" would first be removed.
1 Corinthians 15: 55 "O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?"



Nobody's disputing the allegorical aspect, which symply means using symbolic language. We're not saying that somewhere beyond Saturn there are punishment lakes of fire.

It seems rather obvious that some sort of punishment awaits wrong doers but I think it is wonderful that a group of people have turned the Bible upside down and made it into a "happily ever after" story book. The seriousness of any message is destroyed by the pictures of nice families with nice children under blue skies in a distant Eden-Earth in which Jesus is Prime Minister or something of the sort but I can see no harm in proposing such, though I can see no truth either.

User avatar
PinSeeker
Banned
Banned
Posts: 2920
Joined: Wed Jun 06, 2018 1:07 pm
Has thanked: 53 times
Been thanked: 74 times

Post #256

Post by PinSeeker »

JehovahsWitness wrote: In short the "weeping and gnashing of teeth" is a reaction, not to being subjected to some physical punishment, but rather a reaction to being rejected.
Agree, 100 percent.
JehovahsWitness wrote:Could it not be that Jesus was commenting, not on what will be done to the wicked after they die but rather how they will feel being exposed as feuds and hypocrite while they are alive?
No, it could not. Jesus is likening -- producing a similitude to, as it were -- treatment of the misbehaving/wicked in the realm of the dead to the same (treatment of the misbehaving/wicked) in the realm of the living. This is the very purpose of these metaphors/allegories. In these passages, Jesus explains the treatment of the misbehaving/wicked in the realm of the dead by giving them a point of reference that they can relate to (because they only know the realm of the living, having never witnessed the realm of the dead).
JehovahsWitness wrote:Indeed discerning readers will ask themselves if annoyance even rage is a natural reaction while being subjected to unspeakable torture.
There is no physical or mental torture in hell. Just the absence of all good, the total removal of God's grace (not God Himself) and the substituting of His perpetual judgment. I would guess this produces the whole range of negative emotions in the person who ends up there. With regard to anger and rage in particular, my opinion is that these emotions are directed at the self, as in, "Why? Why did I refuse God? Why did I do that?" We do read that even the dead will praise and confess Jesus to God's glory (Philippians 2:10-11). And back to the original topic of discussion, how does one praise and confess something if he or she does not exist? Answer: It's not possible; he or she must exist.
JehovahsWitness wrote: Note that in the Hebrew bible "gnashing teeth" is never used to describe the actions if the dead.
Directly speaking, true. But indirectly speaking, false. See above.
JehovahsWitness wrote:Note how Christian bible writers used the expression; it is the individual gnashing their teeth that is furious, angry, hurt (not hurt in regretful repentance but deeply affected) and frustrated.
Again, 100 percent agreed.
Last edited by PinSeeker on Mon Jul 15, 2019 12:47 pm, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
William
Savant
Posts: 14164
Joined: Tue Jul 31, 2012 8:11 pm
Location: Te Waipounamu
Has thanked: 911 times
Been thanked: 1642 times
Contact:

Post #257

Post by William »

@252

marco: Since you don't accept that souls of the dead are placed in heaven or hell, then you must attach Christ's words to living folk, which of course makes no sense. The story of the tormented rich man has its context in the afterlife but you prefer to ignore the stated context.

William: It appears the reason for the ignoring has to do with the idea that it is intolerable to think that ones GOD would DO this to others.
That in itself is an acceptable thing in which to uphold IF not for the oxymoron of both trying to hold up the belief that the Bible is the Word of GOD and horrifying things are attributed to the GOD of the bible, in relation to Human Beings.

For example, how does one expect another to see reason in the idea of a GOD who - once upon a time - commanded armies to atrocities against enemies, and yet could not possibly command sinful Humans to an existence of eternal torment?

The answer is to fudge the books and juggle the numbers. The result is an embarrassing example of non-sensible argument...


marco: This is a silly explanation. If the evil among us discover that there's no torture, just endless sleep, I hardly suppose they will gnash their teeth and weep in frustration. The notoriously evil monsters through the centuries would find eternal rest an unexpected reward.

William: Also snatching away any hope of Justice. GOD wouldn't look so good in the eyes of those who suffered the most from the evil monsters.

marco: They are incomprehensibly bound hand and foot, which suggests violence. It is an art to be able to take words that obviously refer to extreme punishment and reduce them to frustration felt at not being allowed to eat at the banquet.

William: I see no art therein, apart from con-art...I do understand that people who follow this type of doctrine just want a GOD who they can see as blameless, and this is the attempt at making one...but - as is seen time and again - the confusion is in their also claiming a book is "the word of the GOD" and from there on in, it is a downward spiral of paper shuffling silliness.

User avatar
marco
Savant
Posts: 12314
Joined: Sun Dec 20, 2015 3:15 pm
Location: Scotland
Been thanked: 2 times

Post #258

Post by marco »

PinSeeker wrote:
There is no physical or mental torture in hell. Just the absence of all good, the total removal of God's grace (not God Himself) and the substituting of His perpetual judgment.

Would there be any point to this nonsense? It sounds like putting a recalcitrant pupil in a corner, not for five minutes, but for eternity. It is an exercise in silliness, Will there be irritating music or half cooked bacon? At least the prescription of punishment seems to have some point, however harsh.

User avatar
PinSeeker
Banned
Banned
Posts: 2920
Joined: Wed Jun 06, 2018 1:07 pm
Has thanked: 53 times
Been thanked: 74 times

Post #259

Post by PinSeeker »

onewithhim wrote: It is so clear that "the lake of fire" is HYPERBOLE, ALLEGORICAL, SYMBOLIC.....that it can't be escaped.
Well, I agree with the latter two, but I wouldn't say "hyperbole" -- I might even say it's understating the reality of hell. Like, in opposite fashion, we talk of heaven: We can talk of its perfection, but we really can't fathom it; it's probably far greater than we can even grasp. But I do agree with the latter two. It's what I have been saying all through this thread.

User avatar
marco
Savant
Posts: 12314
Joined: Sun Dec 20, 2015 3:15 pm
Location: Scotland
Been thanked: 2 times

Post #260

Post by marco »

[Replying to post 257 by William]

Hello William,

Yes the theory of eternal gnashing in regret dims God's grandeur just a little. God created humans to live for a few years and then, enraged, let them vegetate for ever. What a fine plan!

I don't endorse the Muslim notion that God burns the dead and replaces their skin so he can repeat the fun of burning them, but it does seem that Jesus had ideas that somewhere in the great afterlife people pay for their badness or get rewards for clothing the naked and giving water to the thirsty.

All in all the religious view of the afterlife is bleak and boring, alleviated occasionally by somebody chanting "Alleluia!"

Post Reply