If you don't trust the Bible, Where do you look for truth?

2timothy316 · Post by **2timothy316** » Thu Jul 25, 2019 8:52 am

What say you?
Also, if you don't see an option in the vote then add it in a comment.

tam · Post by **tam** » Sat Jul 27, 2019 2:51 pm

May you all have peace,

If not the Bible, what do you look to for truth?

Not a what, or even a where, but rather a whom.

To whom do I look to for truth?

Christ Jaheshua.

"I am the Way, the Truth, and the Life."

Yes, some of His words are recorded in the bible (OT and NT). But the bible is also subject to the erring pen of the scribes (Jeremiah 8:8; Matthew 23:13). Christ also said that He had much more to teach, more than the apostles at the time could yet bear. The bible cannot teach more than what has been recorded in it, and even what is recorded is not always understood in truth (sometimes due to the erring pen of the scribes, sometimes due to the false teachers, sometimes because the reader is not turning to Christ, the One who opens the scriptures to begin with). But Christ is a living person, and He is continuing to teach us, training us in love and righteousness.

In summary, I do not turn to the bible to know the truth. I turn to Christ Jaheshua. He is the Truth, He speaks the truth, and He has promised to lead His people into ALL truth.

May anyone who wishes them be given ears to hear. And may anyone who thirsts, "Come! Take the free gift of the water of Life."

Peace again to you,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy

shnarkle · Post by **shnarkle** » Sat Jul 27, 2019 3:19 pm

marco wrote:
shnarkle wrote:
And yet, with regards to religion, there is no way you can be certain of this claim, correct?
Which rather illustrates the point that certainty is elusive.
Including your comments which you seem so certain of.

You seemed to accept we are dealing with the uncertainty of opinions on religion.
Yours included, which you seem so certain of.

The statement you are commenting on is a commentary on the imperfection in human reasoning tools, not on the field of uncertainty we outlined.
I'm pointing out that your claims cannot be excluded from your own elusive certainty.

marco · Post by **marco** » Sat Jul 27, 2019 4:15 pm

shnarkle wrote:

I'm pointing out that your claims cannot be excluded from your own elusive certainty.

I know what you're doing and you are making a mistake. You are employing a proposition outside of the domain where it is valid. I have not made a universal declaration that certainty is impossible in all situations: in the area of opinion it is elusive. In mathematics it is a desideratum.

shnarkle · Post by **shnarkle** » Sat Jul 27, 2019 6:45 pm

marco wrote:
shnarkle wrote:

I'm pointing out that your claims cannot be excluded from your own elusive certainty.
I know what you're doing and you are making a mistake. You are employing a proposition outside of the domain where it is valid. I have not made a universal declaration that certainty is impossible in all situations: in the area of opinion it is elusive. In mathematics it is a desideratum.

You're the one who keeps bringing up mathematics. My point has nothing to do with mathematics. I'm referring to the point you're making within its proper domain. I'm just pointing out that you're making claims that must be uncertain according to your own claims.

marco · Post by **marco** » Sun Jul 28, 2019 3:44 am

shnarkle wrote:
You're the one who keeps bringing up mathematics. My point has nothing to do with mathematics. I'm referring to the point you're making within its proper domain. I'm just pointing out that you're making claims that must be uncertain according to your own claims.

Opinion, by definition, is an area where one voices one's ideas, and however strongly held our view, it remains a guess and therefore uncertain. I mentioned other areas because there one can be certain. Was Cicero killed, might be an area where we can claim certainty. In religion it is a matter of opinion which reformer formed the "best" religion; whether Jehovah's Witnesses are on a better path than Mormons; whether there is a need for Papal Infallibility. And we discuss these matters without looking up a book of answers. Some people think the BIble, with all its flaws, supplies answers. That too is a religious opinion.

But you must believe whatever you choose. That generates debate, however futile the discussion becomes.

2timothy316 · Post by **2timothy316** » Mon Jul 29, 2019 9:49 am

marco wrote:
shnarkle wrote:
You're the one who keeps bringing up mathematics. My point has nothing to do with mathematics. I'm referring to the point you're making within its proper domain. I'm just pointing out that you're making claims that must be uncertain according to your own claims.
Opinion, by definition, is an area where one voices one's ideas, and however strongly held our view, it remains a guess and therefore uncertain. I mentioned other areas because there one can be certain. Was Cicero killed, might be an area where we can claim certainty. In religion it is a matter of opinion which reformer formed the "best" religion; whether Jehovah's Witnesses are on a better path than Mormons; whether there is a need for Papal Infallibility. And we discuss these matters without looking up a book of answers. Some people think the BIble, with all its flaws, supplies answers. That too is a religious opinion.

But you must believe whatever you choose. That generates debate, however futile the discussion becomes.

What makes the statement 'you must believe whatever you choose' true? Are you saying the above statement is certainly true? Where are you getting your certainty, yourself or somewhere else?

bjs · Post by **bjs** » Wed Jul 31, 2019 1:54 pm

Personally, I look to the Bible for truth. I also use my reason, experience and church tradition to inform my understanding of the truth.

2timothy316 · Post by **2timothy316** » Wed Jul 31, 2019 4:32 pm

bjs wrote: Personally, I look to the Bible for truth. I also use my reason, experience and church tradition to inform my understanding of the truth.

You're to be commended for at least giving an answer. If you read some of the posts there are some that don't give an answer at as to what form of communication they trust from God. So far the majority in the poll the answer is themselves. I wonder though if God is speaking to every person individually why aren't they all in unison in what they believe and teach?

RightReason · Post by **RightReason** » Wed Jul 31, 2019 5:01 pm

[Replying to post 47 by bjs]

Personally, I look to the Bible for truth. I also use my reason, experience and church tradition to inform my understanding of the truth.

We are called to look to Sacred Scripture as well as Sacred Tradition (the Church). If we look to the Bible, we see the Bible tells us that the pillar and foundation of truth is the church. If we look to the Church, we hear the message that ignorance of Scripture is ignorance of Christ. Sacred Scripture cannot contradict Sacred Tradition and Sacred Tradition cannot contradict Sacred Scripture.

If one doesn't even believe in God, even he can find truth in the world we live in, which ultimately hopefully brings him to Christ, but simply by acknowledging the world we live in and the way it works and observing man and his relatinship with this world, we can know Truth. It is written in God's handi work -- this world.

2timothy316 · Post by **2timothy316** » Wed Jul 31, 2019 7:50 pm

RightReason wrote:
We are called to look to Sacred Scripture as well as Sacred Tradition (the Church)

Sacred Scripture that says this please.

Here is mine, in a prayer to Jesus' Father, John 17:17 "Sanctify them by the truth; Your word is truth."

Debating Christianity and Religion