How is Christianity not a Negative and Dismal Theology?

[Divine Insight]

Christian theology begins with Adam and Eve falling from grace. There's certainly nothing positive about that.

According to the Bible mankind only got progressively worse until the God had to drown out the entire species of humans in a Great Flood save for just a handful of one family and their spouses.

After that event everything went downhill again becoming no better than it was before the Great Flood.

Finally, this God supposedly became incarnate as a human on earth via the virgin-born Jesus. Was totally ineffective in convincing any religious or government leaders to change their ways in the slightest. And was supposedly crucified to pay for the sins of only those who would be willing to accept this crucifixion on their behalf as their penal substitute.

Supposedly only a "few" totally undeserving humans will be granted undeserved grace if they agree to accepting Christ's act of penal substitution on their behalf.

Notice that even the "few" who have received this undeserved grace did not earn it on their own merit. It is necessarily strictly forbidden in this theology that any human should merit their own salvation.

So what do we end up with?

A religion where a few undeserving evil people are granted undeserved amnesty for having condoned the crucifixion of Christ as their penal substitute.

Now I can see where the people who believe that they are among these few evil people who have been granted undeserved grace are "rejoicing" that they will no longer be condemned.

But is that truly a positive religion?

Sounds pretty dismal to me. All humans are condemned in this religion, and the only ones who can escape condemnation are those who are willing to have Christ crucified on their behalf.

I just can't see where there is anything positive in this religion?

I mean, I can see where those who thought they were doomed and believed to have been "saved" will see this as the greatest thing ever. But the fact that they had to first believe they were doomed is already a negative thing to begin with.

Question for Debate:

How exactly is Christianity supposed to be a positive or optimistic religion?

[shnarkle]

[Replying to post 1 by Divine Insight]

Christian theology begins with Adam and Eve falling from grace. There's certainly nothing positive about that.

And yet they have no problem with it. Only you seem to be obsessively bothered by it.

This is patently untrue. The 'fall from grace' is by definition a negative event and hundreds of Christian scholars have written reams about it.

And most Christians see it as a necessary factor in their own lives. They see their own fall from grace, and this realization is what causes them to turn their lives around. So it's not a negative event at all from their perspective. They use it to help other see that it's not really as bad as people think it is because by seeing how bad it is, it necessarily means you're not deluding yourself anymore it allows people who are going nowhere in their lives to see that there are others who were in the same depressing hopeless place they were at one time, and that honest appraisal was what they needed to turn their life around. It's a pretty significant cause for celebration when someone is able to turn their lives around like that. So when you see all those happy faces, that should be your first clue that it's not some negative or hopeless religion. The only reason to view it as negative is by projecting. Atheists seem to be quite good at that when it comes to Christianity.

[Tcg]

The only reason to view it as negative is by projecting. Atheists seem to be quite good at that when it comes to Christianity.

It is theists of the Christian variety that invented the absurdity of original sin. Atheists simply comment on that absurdity. There is no projection involved.

We quite rightfully reject the negative theology Christians have created. We don't need to create it ourselves as Christians have already done so. Those of us who are aware of Christian theology point out it's dismality as a public service to fellow humans who may not be aware of it's danger.

Those who support it are as guilty as those who invented it. Those who announce it's purely negative nature are the ones doing what Christians claim to do but don't, loving their neighbors as themselves.


Tcg

[ttruscott]

If a human can think it, the process is human.

One more try: I was not referring to thought as human or otherwise but in answer to what we would do in the heavenly state, that the topic of the thinking was being restricted to ordinary human experience, with no imagination about a possible heavenly experience...

You are so far from what I was talking about I will not reply to this again.

[Tcg]

If a human can think it, the process is human.

One more try: I was not referring to thought as human or otherwise but in answer to what we would do in the heavenly state,

Given that we humans aren't in this claimed, but not supported, heavenly state, there is no value in claiming what we would do if we were in it. Even if we were to reach this mythological existence, we'd still be humans and thus still rely on human thought.


Tcg

[shnarkle]

The only reason to view it as negative is by projecting. Atheists seem to be quite good at that when it comes to Christianity.

It is theists of the Christian variety that invented the absurdity of original sin. Atheists simply comment on that absurdity. There is no projection involved.

As absurd as the doctrine of original sin may be, it doesn't compare to the absurdity of commenting on it. When one decides to go on some obsessive rant on it, it is beyond absurd. Then it's time for your medicine.

We quite rightfully reject the negative theology Christians have created.

Perhaps you'd like to add your views on SpongeBob's latest adventure well('')

We don't need to create it ourselves as Christians have already done so.

Your lack of creativity is noted.

Those of us who are aware of Christian theology point out it's dismality as a public service to fellow humans who may not be aware of it's danger.

You mean morons, right? Who else would need this pointed out to them?

Those who support it are as guilty as those who invented it.

Guilty? (':shock:') Uh oh, looks like you may have spent a bit too much time stewing in that twisted theology yourself. Step away from the bible dude, you're accusatory and condemning tone indicates you may have caught whatever they have.

Those who announce it's purely negative nature are the ones doing what Christians claim to do but don't, loving their neighbors as themselves.

You might want to try smiling in a mirror for a few minutes every morning when you get up. It should help our self image.

[SallyF]

[Replying to post 1 by Divine Insight]

Christian theology begins with Adam and Eve falling from grace. There's certainly nothing positive about that.

And yet they have no problem with it. Only you seem to be obsessively bothered by it.

This is patently untrue. The 'fall from grace' is by definition a negative event and hundreds of Christian scholars have written reams about it.

And most Christians see it as a necessary factor in their own lives. They see their own fall from grace, and this realization is what causes them to turn their lives around. So it's not a negative event at all from their perspective. They use it to help other see that it's not really as bad as people think it is because by seeing how bad it is, it necessarily means you're not deluding yourself anymore it allows people who are going nowhere in their lives to see that there are others who were in the same depressing hopeless place they were at one time, and that honest appraisal was what they needed to turn their life around. It's a pretty significant cause for celebration when someone is able to turn their lives around like that. So when you see all those happy faces, that should be your first clue that it's not some negative or hopeless religion. The only reason to view it as negative is by projecting. Atheists seem to be quite good at that when it comes to Christianity.

And therein lies what I see as the insidious trap of Christianity.

Convince people they are worthless sinners … and offer them the ONLY way out.

Take people who already think they are worthless … and offer them the ONLY way out.

Either way, without negativity, the trap of Christianity does not work.

[Divine Insight]

And most Christians see it as a necessary factor in their own lives. They see their own fall from grace, and this realization is what causes them to turn their lives around.

So are you suggesting that all Christians were heading down a road of criminal behavior and had to "turn their lives around"?

Apparently you don't think much of your fellow Christians, or even of yourself for that matter since you seem to accept that this must be true for you as well.

And what about the children of Christians who were born into the religion? Did they too need to "turn their lives around"?

Talk about a negative theology. You are yourself proclaiming that Christianity is all about humans basically being criminals who need to "turn their lives around".

If that's not an extremely negative and self-degrading theology I don't know what would be.

[Divine Insight]

As absurd as the doctrine of original sin may be, it doesn't compare to the absurdity of commenting on it. When one decides to go on some obsessive rant on it, it is beyond absurd. Then it's time for your medicine.

Are you unaware that you have registered on a debate forum on the very topic of Christian theology?

Accusing people who point out the failings of a theology as going on some obsessive rant is just ridiculous.

The dismal aspect of the theology is well-known by Christian theists and apologists as Danmark has pointed out.

The idea that all humans deserve to be damned and need to be "saved" from damnation is the foundational thesis of the religion.

Trying to argue that it's not is ridiculous.

This isn't something that atheists made up. This is what the theology itself demands.

Who are you trying to kid?

[SallyF]

[Replying to post 55 by shnarkle]

I just had the misfortune to read your post. It looked very puerile and personal to me.

I think you're the person who declared that both Christians and Atheists lacked intelligence … implying that you have intelligence superior to all of us.

You mean morons, right? Who else would need this pointed out to them?

Perhaps you'd like to add your views on SpongeBob's latest adventure well('')

I've never watched an episode, but SpongeBob seems very positive and far from dismal. You are obviously familiar with children's cartoons (dude) perhaps you can confirm that for us …?

But the BIG advantage SpongeBob SquarePants has over Jesus, is that we have VERIFIABLE EVIDENCE of who wrote the fantastical tales.

Gotta go look in the mirror and take my medication now ….

[Tcg]

As absurd as the doctrine of original sin may be, it doesn't compare to the absurdity of commenting on it.

I see. When you comment on original sin, it is to be taken as a deeply insightful thought.

When I do so, it is an absurdity.

I don't need to rely on such a double standard to make my point and I am sure the trusted readers here will recognize this fact.


Tcg