Why So Many Leave the Christian Faith

[Jagella]

Question for Debate: If Christianity makes credible claims and "transforms lives" for the better, then why do so many people leave the faith?

There's nothing new about people converting to Christianity only to revert to the thinking and practices that made up their lives prior to their conversions. In Matthew 13:1-9 Jesus preaches his "Parable of the Sower." This parable confused the disciples, and Jesus then explained it in Matthew 13:19-23 (NRSV):

When anyone hears the word of the kingdom and does not understand it, the evil one comes and snatches away what is sown in the heart; this is what was sown on the path. As for what was sown on rocky ground, this is the one who hears the word and immediately receives it with joy; yet such a person has no root, but endures only for a while, and when trouble or persecution arises on account of the word, that person immediately falls away. As for what was sown among thorns, this is the one who hears the word, but the cares of the world and the lure of wealth choke the word, and it yields nothing. But as for what was sown on good soil, this is the one who hears the word and understands it, who indeed bears fruit and yields, in one case a hundredfold, in another sixty, and in another thirty.

So to summarize, we are given three reasons why people convert to Christianity and then leave it:

• 1. They cannot understand Christian faith and are confused by it.
  2. Christian faith can cause trouble for the convert and can even be dangerous for the convert.
  3. Christian faith can become difficult or impossible to retain for practical reasons or financial reasons.

I think that these reasons do loom large in Christians abandoning the faith, and this abandonment of the faith has become known as "apostacy." Apostates are those Christians who "fall away" from Christianity.

I am an apostate. I left the Christian religion for the reasons listed above. However, the Parable of the Sower doesn't cover all the bases. I had other reasons for leaving the faith including seeing little if any truth in it. I'm an honest man who values his personal integrity, and I won't be a phony. I'm not going to to deliberately and knowingly spread falsehoods. As such, I could not remain a Christian.

[OnceConvinced]

Notice that trying to demean someone’s previous commitment to Christianity sounds like a desperation effort.

Not only is smearing a person's experience as a Christian a "desperation effort," but it's just plain rude. I've told some Christians that when they convert a person to their religion they should warn that person that if that person judges Christianity to be unworthy of her or his commitment to it, then Christians will attack that person as a deceiver and a hypocrite.

If only I had been so warned!

It's one of the things that is the mark of a cult isn't it? To slander an apostate and say "You were never really one of us."

I also really like what Zyzxx said in that post about how convinced Christians are that they are about their own salvation. Most of them are convinced they are true Christians with the holy spirt guiding them. They are convinced they are in a relationship with God.

Yep, I too was convinced of that too. Thus my name here "OnceConvinced". For over 30 years of my life I was convinced of that and could never concieve of a time where I would not believe.

I think there is defintiely a deep seeded fear in some Christians, scared of becoming an ex-Christian. It terrifies them. I don't blame them. It terrified me too when I started to lose my faith. It was an extremely traumatic experience.

[OnceConvinced]

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If only I had been so warned!

Had you read these debates during earlier days, might that have influenced your decisions regarding Christianity?

I will answer this question too.

I think it would have influenced me. I think I would have been an ex-Christian sooner.

Why do I say that?

Because it was websites like this one where I was first faced with quetions I couldn't give good answers to, and where I was forced to rexamine some of my fiercely held beliefs.

I had always lived in mainly a safe Christian bubble, with like minded people. And even the atheists I mingled with respected my beliefs and made little effort to debate with me. Of course I knew my bible well, so that would soon deter some of them anyway.

Being a rational and logical person, I couldn't just flag away many of the arguments I was faced with. I was forced to think further about them. And gradually this lead me to realising many truths and many of those weren't good for my faith in Jesus.

There are other reasons too that lead me to disbelief. Another large factor was learning to think critically in my late 20s. I had to do this when I did a degree. It meant challenging things and thinking outside the bubble I was in due to indoctrination as a child.

[Jagella]

It's one of the things that is the mark of a cult isn't it?

If you go by how some Christian groups describe what they call "cults," then all religions including their own are cults.

To slander an apostate and say "You were never really one of us."

In a sense that accusation has some truth to it, at least in my case. If respecting the truth more than Christian dogma and leaving that which appears to be a farce is "not being one of them," then I suppose I never was one of them. I'm glad I never was one of them.

I also really like what Zyzxx said in that post about how convinced Christians are that they are about their own salvation. Most of them are convinced they are true Christians with the holy spirt guiding them. They are convinced they are in a relationship with God.

Well, many Christians will tell you that they "know God," but if they really think they are guided by the Holy Ghost, I'm not so sure. I think it's common for Christians to want to believe rather than actually believe. So they really don't know God but wish to know God.

Thus my name here "OnceConvinced". For over 30 years of my life I was convinced of that and could never concieve of a time where I would not believe.

What in particular convinced you? A big factor in my belief was the miracle stories I heard. I could not believe that all those people telling those stories could be wrong.

I think there is defintiely a deep seeded fear in some Christians, scared of becoming an ex-Christian. It terrifies them. I don't blame them. It terrified me too when I started to lose my faith. It was an extremely traumatic experience.

As my faith slipped away, I also feared God's wrath and his condemnation. However, when I fully realized that there is no God to fear, I felt extremely liberated and happy. My euphoria didn't last long, though, because although I didn't need to fear the wrath of any gods, I did incur the wrath of people who became outraged that I dared to say that there are no gods.

[Realworldjack]

[Replying to post 13 by SallyF]

Sorry for the delay. I have been away for a few days, and when I have been here I have been dealing with another thread.

At any rate, the question is not, "does Christianity transform lives" but rather, "does Christianity necessarily transform lives for the better, and what do we mean by better"?

If we mean by "better" that life will be good, and our life will become better, this is what I have a quarrel with!

As an example, I read a letter a number of years ago, from one who converted to Christianity from Islam, who lived in Yemen. In this letter he speaks of how overjoyed he is to have come to this knowledge of Christ he now has. However, one of the questions he had was, "why does life become worse when you become a Christian"?

So then, my argument is if we are saying, "life becomes better, and you will be happier once you become a Christian", because as you can see, conversation to Christianity could cause one's life to be a living hell in some places, but this would not mean that one could not possess the joy of knowing the truth, even though their life, (existence) may be far worse.

[Jagella]

So then, my argument is if we are saying, "life becomes better, and you will be happier once you become a Christian", because as you can see, conversation to Christianity could cause one's life to be a living hell in some places, but this would not mean that one could not possess the joy of knowing the truth, even though their life, (existence) may be far worse.

People should be warned about this "living hell" that converting to Christianity may involve. I'd recommend to those who are Christian who wish to avoid this fate short of getting out of Christianity not to be quick to trust the clergy. It also may be a good idea to forego church attendance, and by all means don't give anybody in the church money! Making Christianity a private affair might be a good way to avoid its many problems if one feels a need for its beliefs.

I think I have a good idea for an new thread.

[JehovahsWitness]

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From a current thread in General Chat: viewtopic.php?p=974723#974723

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Christian vs. Ex-Christian

Apologists often seem unaware that most of their debate opponents here were formerly Christians, some for decades, and are likely to be quite familiar with the teachings and beliefs of Christianity – as well as its weaknesses or defects.

Of course, a typical response by Christians to those who leave Christianity is to demean the person’s former sincerity of belief. However, before accusing anyone of not having been a real / true / committed Christian:

1. Specify who authorized and empowered you to make such judgments.

2. Look up the No True Scotsman logical fallacy.

3. Be aware that Forum rule #15 specifically prohibits saying who is or is not a Christian (and presumably including who was or was not).

4. Notice that trying to demean someone’s previous commitment to Christianity sounds like a desperation effort.


Consider that if and when you leave Christianity what you know about its dogma, rituals and literature will not suddenly disappear – and you could become a very effective debater against your former position. Of course, you are firmly convinced that you will never leave (and you may not); however, the apostates very likely were just as convinced once as you are now.

Emphasis MINE


Interesting post. I would be interested in how the above would effect how one responds to a persons personal testimony of how their Christian experience improved a their life for the better. Do the above protections only exist for former believers?

Personal testimonies are akin to belly buttons – few are without -- claims of special significance are not evidenced.

Notice the word CLAIMS – CLAIMS of special significance [in personal testimonies] are not evidenced.

People may CLAIM (in testimonials) anything that comes into their head; however, unless they verify the claim with evidence, it is just ‘blowing smoke’ – or telling tales of personal subjective experience

JW

[1213]

Question for Debate: If Christianity makes credible claims and "transforms lives" for the better, then why do so many people leave the faith?

I believe the most common reason is that it is easier without it. For example, it doesn’t require anything to be an atheist, but to be a Christian, it can have a price.

For me the reason to be a Christian is the teachings of Jesus. I think they are good and I don’t want to reject them. If I would think the teaching is bad or wrong, I would reject Christianity.

[Overcomer]

Maybe we should define what it means to be a Christian. Being a Christian means being born again, that is, that one's spirit that was once dead in sin is brought alive in Christ. It's impossible to be "unborn" spiritually just as it is impossible to be "unborn" physically.

Being a Christian means being in a personal relationship with God through the person of Jesus Christ by the infilling of the Holy Spirit. One can leave a relationship with Jesus, but he can't pretend there was no relationship in the first place if he was truly once in one.

So there are born-again Spirit-filled Christians. There are nominal Christians who, by definition, are Christians in name only, but not in fact.

Personally, I have seen people walk away from God because they were angry with God re: tragedy in their lives or they belonged to a legalistic church that made religion an ugly chore or they wanted to commit a sin such as living with their girlfriend or leaving their wife for another woman and, because the church said that was bad, they chose to leave the church so they could live as they wanted to. I have known people in these categories.

But here's another thing I have noticed about those with whom I have personally interacted. Many people who start to have doubts tend to read only that material that feeds those doubts, never anything that can build their faith, which suggests to me that they really want to leave and are looking for justification to do so. They tend to hide behind "intellectual" reasons. They think that will legitimize their leaving -- in their own eyes at least.

I'm not saying that no one leaves for intellectual reasons. I'm just saying that there are a lot of people who leave for reasons that have nothing to do with either intellect or lack of persuasive evidence.

Interestingly, Christianity may be declining on the North American continent as we become more and more godless, but it is increasing elsewhere in the world. See here:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/act ... matically/

Hopefullly, no one will suggest (with racial bigotry) that these people are less educated or less civilized as you will find some exceptionally well-educated people in non-North-American countries who love the Lord.

And here's an ex-atheist who talks about why people reject Christianity and his own experience as an atheist who came to Christ:

https://coldcasechristianity.com/writin ... convinced/

https://coldcasechristianity.com/writin ... pposition/

[Tcg]

I believe the most common reason is that it is easier without it. For example, it doesn’t require anything to be an atheist, but to be a Christian, it can have a price.

In the part of the U.S. where I live, it is exactly opposite. When I became an atheist, I lost countless friends and relationships with many family members. If I wanted an easy life, I'd have stayed a Christian.

I left the Christian faith because its claims and promises don't add up. Oh, and before anyone pulls out that old tired excuse, I truly was a Christian.


Tcg

[Tcg]

But here's another thing I have noticed about those with whom I have personally interacted. Many people who start to have doubts tend to read only that material that feeds those doubts, never anything that can build their faith, which suggests to me that they really want to leave and are looking for justification to do so.

This too is exactly the opposite of my experience. When I began to have serious doubts, I turned to trusted Christian friends and reliable Christian sources to find the answers that would resolve my honest doubt.

Guess what? No one could address them short of threats of Hell or some repeated mantra that we'll know the answers when we get to heaven.

I wanted to stay a Christian and turned to Christians for help. None could provide it.


Tcg