God's violent ways

OnceConvinced · Post by **OnceConvinced** » Thu Sep 05, 2019 6:23 pm

The god of the bible tends do deal with sin and evil in very violent ways. Ie, wiping out cities, sending floods, ordering violent deaths, ordering the slaying of animals for sacrifices, sending curses and plagues, etc.

Can you point out any instances in the bible where God deals with sin and evil in non-violent ways?

And I mean God here. Not Jesus.
And there are times God showed mercy and didn't deal with the sin and evil, sure. But when he did, were there non-violent methods used?

JehovahsWitness · Post by **JehovahsWitness** » Mon Sep 30, 2019 12:34 pm

[Replying to post 139 by Zzyzx]

What has that got to do with the death of Jesus?

Bust Nak · Post by **Bust Nak** » Mon Sep 30, 2019 12:39 pm

JehovahsWitness wrote: Morality is very much in the eyes of the beholder I see allowing a willing sacrifice for the greater good, as not only moral but praiseworthy. Something I would do myself if I had the authority...

The general willing to self-sacrifice is praiseworthy sure. The king tasking the general with that mission? Not so praiseworthy. Now consider that it was the king himself demanding a blood sacrifice to satisfy his own wrath before he would end the war that is threatening the lives of countless millions. "Our King has our finest General killed!" is pretty accurate.

Zzyzx · Post by **Zzyzx** » Mon Sep 30, 2019 12:48 pm

.

JehovahsWitness wrote:
Zzyzx wrote:
JehovahsWitness wrote: Morality is very much in the eyes of the beholder I see allowing a willing sacrifice for the greater good, as not only moral but praiseworthy. Something I would do myself if I had the authority.
Suicide is generally looked upon unfavorably in societies -- except the religious (where it is often regarded as heroic).
Yet another reason for humanity to evolve beyond religion.
What has that got to do with the death of Jesus?

If, according to religionists, Jesus â€œcame to die for our sinsâ€�, his death is a suicide

Religious fanatics demonstrate and/or announce similar willingness to sacrifice their lives for their religious beliefs.

If human evolution favors intelligence and judgment, tendencies toward such practices should decline.

marco · Post by **marco** » Mon Sep 30, 2019 1:07 pm

JehovahsWitness wrote: [Replying to post 139 by Zzyzx]

What has that got to do with the death of Jesus?

Suicide is deliberately allowing yourself to die; by not taking food, by not taking precautions; by throwing oneself into a situation where death is certain. Jesus did that: he made a crowd angry by his provocative words (whether or not he believed what he was saying); he apparently had the means to defend himself, and chose not to. What he did, therefore, was suicidal. In fact he said in advance this is what he was going to do.

JehovahsWitness · Post by **JehovahsWitness** » Mon Sep 30, 2019 1:48 pm

marco wrote:
JehovahsWitness wrote: [Replying to post 139 by Zzyzx]

What has that got to do with the death of Jesus?

Suicide is deliberately allowing yourself to die

Jesus didn't "allow himself to die" he was killed. I fail to see how being arrested, tortured and executed can be classified as suicide. For a more detailed response see my Earlier post : Did Jesus commit "suicide"?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 162#357162

marco wrote:
... by not taking food, by not taking precautions; by throwing oneself into a situation where death is certain.

RESPONSE

Would Jesus' death be classified as what would today be called "victim precipitated homicide"?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 213#357213

JW

JehovahsWitness · Post by **JehovahsWitness** » Mon Sep 30, 2019 2:13 pm

[Replying to post 143 by marco]

COULD JESUS PUBLIC MINISTRY BE VIEWED AS RECKLESS AND SUICIDAL BEHAVIOUR?

ANSWER Absolutely not! Jesus words were in fact always based on the national lawcode free of any hint of blasphemy or any content whatsoever that could be misconstrued and evoke a violent reaction from the masses. Indeed his ministy was marked by the crowds not only received his teachings kindly but seeking him out in vast numbers because they found what he said so delightful.

MATTHEW 7:28, 29

When Jesus finished these sayings, the effect was that the crowds were astounded at his way of teaching, for he was teaching them as a person having authority, and not as their scribes.

LUKE 4:22
And they all began to give favorable witness about him and to be amazed at the gracious words coming out of his mouth...

In fact on one occassions when his life was in danger his extraordinary teaching arguably saved his life since the arresting officers sent by his enemies, returned empty handed explaining â€œNever has any man spoken like this

But did Jesus not anger the crowds with his declarations?

No he did not. The only time anyone but the religious leaders (and it is debatable whether religious leaders played a part in that incident) was the murder attempt after his synagogue reading at Nazareth. Whether this was because of what he said or what he failed to do for his kinsfolk we cannot be sure but initially his words were well recieved if perplexing for the locals (Read Luke 4:22,-30).

Is there not a report if him bejng deliberatately provocative, shocking the crowds by asking them to eat his flesh and drink his blood?

Jesus wasn't attempting to deliberately provoke anger in a crowd, he was teaching in a synagogue where his audience should have been amiliar with biblical hyperbole (Arguably the synagogue be the safest place to make such remarks as it was tradition any male adult able to read had the right to read and share his understanding with the congregation (compare Acts 13:15)) . While the words may have been misconstrued, there was absolutely no basis to demand the death penalty for them, indeed those that did turn away from following him complained "This speech is shocking" not "This speech is blasphemous".

CONCLUSION While the religious leaders hated Jesus and sought on several occassions to kill him, they feared doing so when there were people around because from start to finish the crowds loved to listen to Jesus flocked to hear him speak. He was discreet and for the most part reserved his more startling revelations for his intimate acquaintances. To go from there to classifying his teaching as a sort of "suicide by proxy" is a gross misrepresentation of what the gospel accounts present.

JW

RELATED POSTS

Was Jesus a wicked baby?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 17#p980517

Was Jesus secretly gay?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 77#p768477

Was Jesus a greedy hypocrite?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 56#p980356

Was Jesus immodest?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 24#p815924

Was Jesus short tempered and violent?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 99#p976999

Was Jesus guilty of name-calling?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 42#p926542

Was Jesus a " fraud"?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 09#p980509

Was Jesus a double agent working under cover for the Romans?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 82#p933982

Was Jesus ministry reckless, suicidal behaviour?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 76#p980976

Did Jesus commit suicide?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 13#p357213

Was Jesus just being "theatrical" when crying out as he died?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 00#p933200

Was Jesus ugly?
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 97#p976297

marco · Post by **marco** » Mon Sep 30, 2019 3:41 pm

JehovahsWitness wrote:

Jesus didn't "allow himself to die" he was killed. I fail to see how being arrested, tortured and executed can be classified as suicide.

His being killed is not the issue. We know he was executed. It is the precursor to this that constitutes his suicidal behaviour.

Before being led away we have proof that he was capable of avoiding being killed.

"But Jesus answered, "No more of this!" And he touched the man's ear and healed him. "

This illustrates that Christ, had he wanted, could have escaped execution. Obviously, in his own case, he took no action. He effectively said: "I want to die." Jesus made himself a victim - not a helpless victim like the countless martyrs after him who suffered horrible deaths but had not the power to reattaching ears to heal them. If Jesus had the ability to stop his execution, but did not, he committed suicide.

In the case of Sir Thomas More he had no power to stop Henry. He was a victim, as was Anne Boleyn. Jesus was not in that category: he wanted to die, for whatever reason. Presumably he thought it would be temporary since his Father had cohorts of angels waiting, but they weren't in evidence.

EarthScienceguy · Post by **EarthScienceguy** » Mon Sep 30, 2019 3:47 pm

God is a Holy God and cannot have sin in His presences. That is what the Old Testament is

Zzyzx · Post by **Zzyzx** » Mon Sep 30, 2019 5:56 pm

.

JehovahsWitness wrote: Jesus didn't "allow himself to die" he was killed. I fail to see how being arrested, tortured and executed can be classified as suicide.

According to Christian lore, isn't Jesus said to have come to Earth to 'atone for the sins of humanity' by his death?

Did Jesus supposedly know he would die in the atonement process? Did he, of supposed supernatural powers, allow the killing to occur?

Does it make an action non-suicidal if a person arranges for others to 'pull the trigger'? Suicide by cop comes to mind -- someone inducing authorities to kill them when they wish to die. If a person knowingly and deliberately challenges authorities in ways intended to result in their death, are they absolved of being suicidal?

Don McIntosh · Post by **Don McIntosh** » Mon Sep 30, 2019 9:21 pm

marco wrote:
JehovahsWitness wrote: [Replying to post 139 by Zzyzx]

What has that got to do with the death of Jesus?

Suicide is deliberately allowing yourself to die; by not taking food, by not taking precautions; by throwing oneself into a situation where death is certain. Jesus did that: he made a crowd angry by his provocative words (whether or not he believed what he was saying); he apparently had the means to defend himself, and chose not to. What he did, therefore, was suicidal. In fact he said in advance this is what he was going to do.

Marco, I think your argument here is, as usual, rhetorically compelling. But I also think it lacks substance.

Yes, Jesus willingly allowed his own death. But to say that accepting his mission makes him suicidal is at least a little misleading. In common parlance a suicide is a purely destructive, specifically self-destructive, act. It usually is committed to escape a present condition of pain and suffering, and helps no one.

Much to the contrary, in willingly undergoing torture for the benefit of mankind, Jesus decidedly did not attempt to escape suffering, but rather endured indescribable agonies for the stated purpose of saving others. This makes him heroic, not suicidal. Consider a soldier who jumps on a grenade so his comrades nearby can survive. We could simply call that soldier "suicidal" (and some would even call him "stupid"), but we would be seriously misrepresenting who he is and why he did what he did.