Tower of Babel

[Zzyzx]

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Tower of Babel

Genesis 11:
1 And the whole earth was of one language, and of one speech.
2 And it came to pass, as they journeyed from the east, that they found a plain in the land of Shinar; and they dwelt there.
3 And they said one to another, Go to, let us make brick, and burn them throughly. And they had brick for stone, and slime had they for morter.
4 And they said, Go to, let us build us a city and a tower, whose top may reach unto heaven; and let us make us a name, lest we be scattered abroad upon the face of the whole earth.
5 And the LORD came down to see the city and the tower, which the children of men builded.
6 And the LORD said, Behold, the people is one, and they have all one language; and this they begin to do: and now nothing will be restrained from them, which they have imagined to do.
7 Go to, let us go down, and there confound their language, that they may not understand one another's speech.
8 So the LORD scattered them abroad from thence upon the face of all the earth: and they left off to build the city.
9 Therefore is the name of it called Babel; because the LORD did there confound the language of all the earth: and from thence did the LORD scatter them abroad upon the face of all the earth.

Question for debate: Is this a true story of an actual event that occurred in the real world?

[Zzyzx]

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The only people I expect to agree with on theological matters are are my fellow Jehovah's Witness brethren.

Christianity – religion of divisiveness and exclusivity – since earliest times.

If there was internal truth there would be no incentive for internecine conflict and competition (or disagreement between sects about basic ‘truths’)

Outside of that I respect everyone's right to express their opinions and beliefs as I have done here.

Expression of beliefs may be acceptable or even laudable elsewhere, but is inappropriate masquerading as debate.

[1213]

Sure, but why? What convinces you this story is true other than just accepting anything written in the Bible is true?

Some counter arguments have been presented why it's probably not true, yet so far the believers can only come up with "I believe it". Hardly much of a debate.

I believe the story for example because I think it is a good explanation for what we can see on earth. Nowadays people are going back towards one language and one government. The tower symbols one government to rule them all. Modern people have the same goal. And because that seems to be what people (rulers) want, why would they voluntarily get many different languages, at least if we assume that people game into existence on one place and spread from there around the world? What would be better explanation for different languages?

[Difflugia]

What would be better explanation for different languages?

Tribalism, subsistence economies, slow methods of transportation, and difficulty of crossing natural barriers?

[benchwarmer]

Sure, but why? What convinces you this story is true other than just accepting anything written in the Bible is true?

Some counter arguments have been presented why it's probably not true, yet so far the believers can only come up with "I believe it". Hardly much of a debate.

I believe the story for example because I think it is a good explanation for what we can see on earth. Nowadays people are going back towards one language and one government. The tower symbols one government to rule them all. Modern people have the same goal. And because that seems to be what people (rulers) want, why would they voluntarily get many different languages, at least if we assume that people game into existence on one place and spread from there around the world? What would be better explanation for different languages?

You think a god getting mad at a group of people for building a stone tower that could likely not come anywhere close to the height of what we build today is a good explanation? Seriously?

This is another area where some simple research will get you all kinds of answers if you are really interested in how languages develop.

I'll give a simple example in English. I'm pretty sure no gods or towers were involved in this difference in language. What does the following sentence mean?

1213, can you please throw that purse in the boot?

What do you do:

a) Pick up your wife's handbag and stick into on of her large footwear items.
b) Pick up your small money holder and toss it into the back of the car.

Clearly language evolves given time and physical separation even within the same language. Stretch this out to longer time periods and more physical separation and you can clearly see why different languages evolve.

No gods or towers required.

[Tcg]

[Replying to post 54 by benchwarmer]


One of my favorite examples is from Arlo Guthrie's performance at Woodstock. He said, "Like I was rappin' to the fuzz, right, can you dig it?" That was just over 50 years ago. I recently asked my 22 year old son if he knew what Arlo meant. He had no idea.

Language changes constantly and sometimes quickly.


Tcg

[brunumb]

The story seems to me to be an imaginative attempt on the part of someone in the past to explain why there were people in different parts of the world speaking different languages when they were all supposed to have originated in one place from one highly reproductive couple.

Another question: Just what would have been the outcome of the collaborative construction enterprise if God had not intervened as described in the biblical account?

[SallyF]

The story seems to me to be an imaginative attempt on the part of someone in the past to explain why there were people in different parts of the world speaking different languages when they were all supposed to have originated in one place from one highly reproductive couple.

Another question: Just what would have been the outcome of the collaborative construction enterprise if God had not intervened as described in the biblical account?

Earthenware construction methods would certainly have improved due to the iterative processes involved.

But what Biblicists DON'T generally give the industrious monolinguists credit for, is the tremendous saving in wing power for Jehovah and his angels when they fluttered down from the ceiling of the Dome created in the Genesis 1 creation myth.

And to help prevent feathers burning up on reentry to the atmosphere …!

They may have been building the ziggurat to ASSIST Jehovah and the angels.

We can see the comfort and convenience such a structure provided in "God's Own Truth" with the (true) story of Jacob's Ladder

[1213]

You think a god getting mad at a group of people for building a stone tower that could likely not come anywhere close to the height of what we build today is a good explanation? Seriously?

The purpose of the tower was that people would not be scattered and not be free. It was actually like tower of Mordor, to rule them all. And I believe that was the reason God interrupted it. It was the first attempt for one world government and it was against freedom, that I think was the reason why it was evil and it was not allowed to continue.

…, and let's make us a name; lest we be scattered abroad on the surface of the whole earth."
Gen. 11:4

Interesting to see how the modern attempt goes.

Clearly language evolves given time and physical separation even within the same language. Stretch this out to longer time periods and more physical separation and you can clearly see why different languages evolve.

By what I see, languages seem to be “evolving� to one global language (English).

[benchwarmer]

You think a god getting mad at a group of people for building a stone tower that could likely not come anywhere close to the height of what we build today is a good explanation? Seriously?

The purpose of the tower was that people would not be scattered and not be free. It was actually like tower of Mordor, to rule them all. And I believe that was the reason God interrupted it. It was the first attempt for one world government and it was against freedom, that I think was the reason why it was evil and it was not allowed to continue.

You seem to be reading a LOT more into Genesis 11 than is actually there. Here is more context:

https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?s ... ersion=NIV

3 They said to each other, “Come, let’s make bricks and bake them thoroughly.� They used brick instead of stone, and tar for mortar. 4 Then they said, “Come, let us build ourselves a city, with a tower that reaches to the heavens, so that we may make a name for ourselves; otherwise we will be scattered over the face of the whole earth.�

5 But the Lord came down to see the city and the tower the people were building. 6 The Lord said, “If as one people speaking the same language they have begun to do this, then nothing they plan to do will be impossible for them. 7 Come, let us go down and confuse their language so they will not understand each other.�

8 So the Lord scattered them from there over all the earth, and they stopped building the city. 9 That is why it was called Babel[c]—because there the Lord confused the language of the whole world. From there the Lord scattered them over the face of the whole earth.

Where in the above is any mention to prevent freedom? What is actually written is that this god is not happy that men have come together and soon appear to be able to accomplish whatever they set their minds to. There is no mention of which things exactly this god is scared of happening. You appear to be inventing reasons which are not in evidence.

By what I see, languages seem to be “evolving� to one global language (English).

Yes, languages are evolving to incorporate features from each other more and more because there is no longer as much physical barrier as there was before. However, even within English the language continues to evolve over time. Case in point: "How sick was that?" When I was a kid, this meant "how horrible was that?" Nowadays it means "How cool was that?" A total reversal in a matter of decades.

[Tcg]

Yes, languages are evolving to incorporate features from each other more and more because there is no longer as much physical barrier as there was before. However, even within English the language continues to evolve over time. Case in point: "How sick was that?" When I was a kid, this meant "how horrible was that?" Nowadays it means "How cool was that?" A total reversal in a matter of decades.

This happens regionally too. I moved from South Carolina to Bucks County, PA as a teenager. While walking home from school with some new friends, a very nice looking Hot Rod drove by. One of my friends shouted, "That's decent!" I was very confused. Decent meant average or so-so to me. I later realized it was a local expression meaning great or exceptional.

A few years later I moved to New Jersey, maybe an hour's drive. No one used that expression that way.


Tcg