"Jesus was in no way a Jew," Wllum

[Danmark]

William claims Jesus was not a Jew. His reasons appear faulty to me, but it may be worthy of debate.

Jesus was in no way a Jew.
He defied commandments.
He practiced and suggested blasphemy.
There is no divine impetus or scripture to suggest a Jewish mother makes you Jewish. It is a completely human convention and...

Deuteronomy 23:2 makes bastard-born people excluded from the assembly of God...

"No one born of a forbidden union may enter the assembly of the LORD. Even to the tenth generation, none of his descendants may enter the assembly of the LORD."


You may say that since God did the immaculating, [sic] that it was sanctioned, the issue is, so few Jews believed this, and OFFICIALLY he was the son of an unholy union between a Roman soldier and a naughty young woman, that you really have no basis at all to make the claim.

In fact, even if Jesus was the son of God, mom could have been a kangaroo, for all the difference it would make.

viewtopic.php?p=984119#984119

[Willum]

[Replying to post 4 by WeSee]

Good point, Jesus didn’t abide by Judaism, he reformed it to Hellenic morality, at the same time calling it wrong, like no true Jew would.
And still don’t today!

[Danmark]

[Replying to post 17 by OnceConvinced]

Remember, they had no reason, Biblical or not to call him a Rabbi.

They had plenty of reason to call him 'Rabbi.' They listened to him and were amazed. Even non theists like myself can appreciate his brilliance, humor, wisdom and charisma. We can see it thru the millennia. Just because we dismiss the supernatural hocus pocus and religious nonsense is no reason we cannot see the greatness in the man.

His sheer audacity in dealing with much older men, rabbis and other learned men impressed the people and even his adversaries. They feared him, which is why he was crucified. They feared and respected his wit. The Beatitudes are both wise and counter intuitive. They show profound knowledge of psychology. Many of his parables have a clever twist, yet make an important point.

You make the mistake of allowing your unbelief in his divinity [which I share] to blind you to his wisdom and brilliance.

[Danmark]

[Replying to post 4 by WeSee]

Good point, Jesus didn’t abide by Judaism, he reformed it to Hellenic morality, at the same time calling it wrong, like no true Jew would.
And still don’t today!

Your reply is misleading because you left out the most important point, WeSee's conclusion:
"Yes, Jesus was a Jew."

[Avoice]

He got his followers to turn their back on the law. He himself didn't.

Much like the serpent in Eden. Got Eve to disobey God. Notice how the serpent didn't eat from that tree though.
Oh but you'll live forever said the adversary. Oldest trick in the book

[Willum]

[Replying to Avoice]

Interesting, but a Jew wouldn’t do that, correct?

[Danmark]

He got his followers to turn their back on the law. He himself didn't.

Nonsense! He got his fellow Jews, some of them, to fulfill the law to see the point and purpose of the law. You are correct that he did not 'turn his back on the law,' but neither did he teach that. What Jesus did was to further the law, to enhance it, to emphasize its true meaning which was all about honoring God and showing that by honoring your neighbor. The essence of the law is love and respect for others. You cannot find a single commandment of the ten that does not have this as its core. But legalisms and interpretations of the law over the Centuries obfuscated the true meaning and essence of the law.
Jesus makes the classic case in the 15th chapter of Matthew:

Traditions and Commandments
15 Then Pharisees and scribes came to Jesus from Jerusalem and said, 2 “Why do your disciples break the tradition of the elders? For they do not wash their hands when they eat.� 3 He answered them, “And why do you break the commandment of God for the sake of your tradition? 4 For God commanded, ‘Honor your father and your mother,’ and, ‘Whoever reviles father or mother must surely die.’ 5 But you say, ‘If anyone tells his father or his mother, “What you would have gained from me is given to God,� 6 he need not honor his father.’ So for the sake of your tradition you have made void the word of God. 7 You hypocrites! Well did Isaiah prophesy of you, when he said:

8 “‘This people honors me with their lips,
but their heart is far from me;
9 in vain do they worship me,
teaching as doctrines the commandments of men.’�

What Defiles a Person
10 And he called the people to him and said to them, “Hear and understand: 11 it is not what goes into the mouth that defiles a person, but what comes out of the mouth; this defiles a person.� 12 Then the disciples came and said to him, “Do you know that the Pharisees were offended when they heard this saying?� 13 He answered, “Every plant that my heavenly Father has not planted will be rooted up. 14 Let them alone; they are blind guides. And if the blind lead the blind, both will fall into a pit.� 15 But Peter said to him, “Explain the parable to us.� 16 And he said, “Are you also still without understanding? 17 Do you not see that whatever goes into the mouth passes into the stomach and is expelled?18 But what comes out of the mouth proceeds from the heart, and this defiles a person. 19 For out of the heart come evil thoughts, murder, adultery, sexual immorality, theft, false witness, slander. 20 These are what defile a person. But to eat with unwashed hands does not defile anyone.�

The Faith of a Canaanite Woman
21 And Jesus went away from there and withdrew to the district of Tyre and Sidon. 22 And behold, a Canaanite woman from that region came out and was crying, “Have mercy on me, O Lord, Son of David; my daughter is severely oppressed by a demon.� 23 But he did not answer her a word. And his disciples came and begged him, saying, “Send her away, for she is crying out after us.� 24 He answered, “I was sent only to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.� 25 But she came and knelt before him, saying, “Lord, help me.� 26 And he answered, “It is not right to take the children's bread and throw it to the dogs.� 27 She said, “Yes, Lord, yet even the dogs eat the crumbs that fall from their masters' table.� 28 Then Jesus answered her, “O woman, great is your faith! Be it done for you as you desire.� And her daughter was healed instantly.

[JehovahsWitness]

Jesus was in no way a Jew.

- ethnically Jesus was a natural decendent of Jacob (Israel) through his biological mother
- tribally a recognised member of the tribe of Judah by his adopted father and biological grandfather

Deuteronomy 23:2 makes bastard-born people excluded from the assembly of God...

Biblically, Jesus was not illegitimate ; he was born to legally married parents.

He defied commandments.
He practiced and suggested blasphemy.

Biblically this is untrue.
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 228#981228

[Willum]

[Replying to post 27 by JehovahsWitness]

Materlinearity, as I have said, is a human convention, conveniently applied. Meaning, nothing.
So it is your position that adoption overrules Deuteronomy? How convenient.

So your claim is that if woman had a child from another father while married to not the father, it would be legitimate? Ok. I think only apologists would agree with you.

The Jews who had Rome execute him, executed him for blasphemy... You have NO leg to stand on.

[Danmark]

[Replying to post 27 by JehovahsWitness]

Materlinearity, as I have said, is a human convention, conveniently applied. Meaning, nothing.
So it is your position that adoption overrules Deuteronomy? How convenient.

So your claim is that if woman had a child from another father while married to not the father, it would be legitimate? Ok. I think only apologists would agree with you.

The Jews who had Rome execute him, executed him for blasphemy... You have NO leg to stand on.

I would have thought you'd have let this go by now.

A. Your Deuteronomy passage only refers to the assembly; it does not mean someone is not a Jew. We've covered this.
B. The Talmud refers to matrilineal descent, but as JW and others have pointed out, both his father and mother were Jews.
C. Jesus was not adopted. He had a real mother and father, Mary and Joseph, or are you claiming the Jewish God is his father? In that case
D. EVERYONE (but you) agrees Jesus was a Jew, apologists and communist heathens like my self.

[Willum]

So I have read through it, I don’t see any thing that really dissuades the position.
You may disagree with it, but the points made are perfectly valid to within an interpretation... and that is where theists shine, isn’t it? Interpret the illogical and the fairytale away?

I still don’t see, and definitely do not agree with, how you dismiss Deuteronomy. I also cannot see how you can dismiss Celsus nor the Talmud’s claim. It is more an if...then, then a dismissible.

And if Jesus is a fairytale, the default position, then the mundane solution fits ALL data. In terms of proof, that is a slam dunk to the impartial observer.

Since, as Liam said, it can all rest on the definition of a Jew, you may have a point, but as you said, genetics is highly disputed... and no other connection is definitive. Unless you believe in magic bloodlines. Certainly Jesus abrogated many Commandments, and was killed for doing so. That is in the NT.

I can only repeat myself, and believe I have countered all objections to an interpretation and in my mind, definitively with the Bible itself.

Cordial regards