Let's go back before creation...

[Willum]

Indulge me if you will and let's imagine we have gone back to a time BEFORE God created everything.
Let's assume there is a God of Judeo-Chritian character, but not use this definition to petulantly prove everything about it.

Now, most Judeo-Christians (JD) claim God is not evil, even taking it to extremes that he can't even be in the presence of evil.

Now back in time as we are, before creation, we can still posit this JC God is omniscient, and knows the future.

Now in this time before creation, there is no evil, correct, only the knowledge of evil?

Is it an irrational conclusion therefore, that God is the only possible source for these evils?

[FWI]

[Replying to post 1 by Willum]

Now in this time before creation, there is no evil, correct, only the knowledge of evil?

No, this is not correct! Before creation (the physical existence and celestial life) there was only God's realm, where "only goodness" existed. There was no knowledge of evil…Additionally, at this point, there is no god other than God (the Supreme Entity)! Thus, Jesus the Christ did not exist…

Is it an irrational conclusion therefore, that God is the only possible source for these evils?

Yes, it is an irrational conclusion that God is the only possible source for evil! The reference or the introduction of evil is recorded in Ezekiel 28:14-15. Now, it is not known how long the anointed cherub was in a perfect state, but it is clear that at "some point" this state changed…

Yet, the writings makes it clear that God (the Supreme Entity) created only the inanimate and animate that are considered good. So, everything that God created and proclaimed was good or complete and sufficiently perfect in its kind; having the qualities best adapted to its design and use. Therefore, evil (the opposite of good) was not created by God. But, was a result of a choice (by created life), which was contrary to God's will…

[Willum]

[Replying to post 40 by FWI]

So you do not believe God is all knowing then?
I mean you cherry picked that particular sentence, and ignored the omniscient portion of the topic as if by leaving it out, you would not have to explain it.

In your presentation, you are assuming God is not omniscient? That he is unaware of the results?

As per usual with the theists answers, we are talking about BEFORE creation, not after.

In short, you have not addressed the topic to answer it.

[FWI]

[Replying to post 41 by Willum]

As per usual with the theists answers, we are talking about BEFORE creation, not after. In short, you have not addressed the topic to answer it.

Well, it seems that this isn't correct. The first question that you proposed seemed to be related to before creation, but you introduced the idea that God had "knowledge of evil," when evil didn't exist! This idea can only be related to after creation and not before. Which, I addressed. The second question introduced the premise that the reader was being challenged to present another option, if possible…Which, if it only relates to before creation, it boxes the reader in. Because, only God existed before creation. Hence, the questions (as worded) seems not to be exclusive to before creation. Thus, I addressed the topic and questions as presented, which had nothing to do with the usual theist's answers…Which, is quite evident from my responses and theirs.

So you do not believe God is all knowing then? In your presentation, you are assuming God is not omniscient? That he is unaware of the results?

It is my opinion that God knows all things, as to what exists! Because, there is no "purpose" to knowing things that do not exist…Therefore, if God decides that something is to exist, it comes to be and He would know all things related to that existence through design. Yet, it is clear that God has also allowed His created beings to have the ability to create. Thus, certain parts of the creation can also come from the created. And, God would also absorb the concepts related to what came to be by the created beings by observation. This is why I suggest that evil comes from the freewill given to the created, not from God.

It is also incorrect that I am assuming that God is not omniscient. I'm suggesting that man's definition of omniscient doesn't completely fit the actual understanding of the idea, from a non-secular position.

Also, the truth is that none of my comments suggest that God is "unaware of the results" as to what is created, either by Himself or by the beings, which God has created…

Hence, it was how the topic seemed to be designed, which I responded to.

[Willum]

[Replying to post 42 by FWI]

Well, it seems that this isn't correct. The first question that you proposed seemed to be related to before creation, but you introduced the idea that God had "knowledge of evil," when evil didn't exist!

If God is omniscient, he knows the future. He knows everything... so when there was nothing else, there was still knowledge of evil, his. Therefore there was only one source... his creation...

It isn't complicated, unless you insist on denying it.

[FWI]

[Replying to post 43 by Willum]

If God is omniscient, he knows the future. He knows everything... so when there was nothing else, there was still knowledge of evil, his.

This concept is also in error. God's nature wouldn't allow for the creation of knowledge that isn't consistent with such a nature, only a different type of nature could do such a thing…Thus, God was not the source of evil or the knowledge of it, because God's nature is truth and goodness or love, not the opposite.

So, the defect in the argument that God created evil and had knowledge of it lies in the mistaken assumption that the Almighty God can do anything or chooses to know everything. Can the Almighty God create logical contradictions? Can God create a world that both exists and doesn’t exist, at the same time? Can God create free willed beings who can do what they choose and must only do what God wants them to do, at the same time? The premise is illogical! Especially, to God the Creator…

Hence, the idea that God knows all futures is vastly misunderstood. God determines certain futures, thus He knows what He determines! However, this isn't always the case. God can decide what He wants to determine (in advance) and what He doesn't. The future is not forced unto God…This would be like buying a book, then bringing it home and throwing it in the garbage before it's read, because you already know all the details and the ending. This, makes no Godly sense at all…

Therefore there was only one source... his creation...

Well, this is actually what I have been claiming…God created celestial beings with freewill or the ability to make decisions for themselves. However, there was only truth and goodness or love, which existed before the celestial beings. Hence, when the Godly nature was rejected: evil was created. This is recorded historically. Where, the knowledge of evil or the different options of evil, only came to be after evil was created and the subsequent observations of certain actions taken, which certain created beings were also rejecting the Godly nature…

It isn't complicated, unless you insist on denying it.

Sorry, but it is complicated! And, assuming that it isn't, is where the problem of understanding begins. So, yes I will continue to "deny" that God created evil, until God opens my mind to believe otherwise. Which, at this point hasn't occurred. Hence, the opinions of the anti-God and the religious, who believe that God created evil and/or the knowledge of evil will have no effect on my position, related to the subject…

[Willum]

[Replying to post 44 by FWI]

How can you define an omniscient/omnipotent creatures nature? You cannot.
You parameterizing the nature of a creature beyond your (and anyone's) comprehension is non-sequitur.

But let's follow your logic:

1. Knowing everything.
So let's go through this piece-wise.
Before creation God knows he will create the Earth.
When he creates the Earth, he knows the serpent will corrupt Adam and Eve.
STOP RIGHT THERE. Knowing it would happen, he could have re-iterated Adam and Eve. Rather than wait for Noah (to start again and fail), or Jesus to start again, and... keep us all in suspense and faith.

2. God's nature.
If God knows everything the things he understands things beyond our ability to understand. There for his nature is not parameterizable by humans. Any more than Attila the Hun could imagine the miracles we could perform with a light switch.

3. Logic.
As an omniscient creature God has logic available to him, unavailable to us. There fore the solutions he would have available are far beyond mortals, therefore you can say NOTHING about him.
Can God create a world that both does and doesn't exist? Easily, employ time as part of your logic. That doesn't satisfy YOUR logic? Employ quantum mechanics. That doesn't satisfy YOUR logic? Employ atomic theory, and 99% of everything does not exist - in terms of location vs volume, that is three ways, and I am not even omniscient.

Can God create free willed beings who can do what they choose and must only do what God wants them to do, at the same time? Easily! He didn't create us with wings, so no matter how we want to fly, we can't (aside from an airplane, let's not get puerile), there are many things that could have been programmed into us that we can't even "logic" because of the way we have been programmed - for lack of a better word. Have you ever tried to bore into an acorn with your nose? Many grubs find this easy.
THE FACT IS if God gave us freewill, he did not have to give us the capacity to do evil, just as he didn't give us the capacity to bore acorns, or even the INSTINCT to build airplanes. Thus your religion is flawed, and so, false.

Hence, the idea that God knows all futures is vastly misunderstood.

and you have no better insight into this, in fact far worst insight into this than many, as shown above. (No offense, simply demonstrated.)

So we have shown in each case that the propositions you have suggested are incorrect.
We could not parameterize such a creature to suit our beliefs about him - even if true.
It would have logic and capability beyond our ability to make statements about, and it would make simplistic constraints of any religion paltry assumptions.

and finally

God could have given us freewill without the capacity to do evil, in the same way he did not give us other instincts, or for that matter wings to fly.

[Diagoras]

God created celestial beings with freewill or the ability to make decisions for themselves. However, there was only truth and goodness or love, which existed before the celestial beings.

There are a few possible interpretations of this, so I wanted to ask:

Are you meaning ‘truth and goodness or love’ as separate concepts, or just one all-encompassing one?

If just one, are you just using ‘love’ as synonymous with ‘God’, or in the sense that you and I might use it (as an emotion)? If as an emotion, then what exactly is the point of ‘creating’ love when there’s nothing and no-one in existence to have that emotion other than God?

Are ‘celestial beings’ what I might think of as ‘angels’? Celestial commonly refers to heaven, but it could conceivably mean ‘extremely good’ (therefore non-evil). Does this mean God created heaven first and populated it with angels, before any creation of what we think of as the universe (including stars and planets)? Were angels ‘individuals’ or effectively clones of some part of God’s essence? How many are we talking here? A dozen? Hundreds? Millions?

It might seem rather facetious, but what type of decisions could a free-willed celestial being in heaven make? What’s their role in God’s plan, both before he creates everything else, and after? Surely no need for ‘holy messengers’ when there’s no-one before Creation to receive a message, and God’s omnipresent anyway, so can (and apparently does) speak directly to people himself. So, what’s the point of an angel, from God’s perspective?

If the only route to evil is through free will, and God creates these angels, then either God is somehow surprised by Evil’s sudden appearance, or he isn’t. Could he have simply ‘uncreated’ the angels just as quickly as he created them in the first place?

Sorry for all the questions, but for any explanation of something or story to feel ‘right’ for me, it needs to make sense in my head. I’m not getting that from the ‘celestial’ explanation at the moment.

[JehovahsWitness]

So, what’s the point of an angel, from God’s perspective?

WHY WOULD GOD CREATE "ANGELS"?

Biblically, God created other intelligent beings* with free will because his love moved him to share the miracle of life and love. He didn't "need" a family per se (The God of the bible is completely self sufficient, and perfectly happy alone) but he knew that others could enjoy life as much as he does if he created them and he desired to share that gift (see Act 20:35).


Strictly speaking it is more accurate to speak of "celestial beings" (or "spirits" or "spririt creatures") than angels because the word angel means "messenger". The first spirit created, The Word* would not have needed to convey any messages (since the two - the Word and YHWH (Jehovah/Yahweh) were alone, presumably for countless millennials see 1 John 1:1a. Whether subsequent spirits served in the capacity of "messengers" (angels) we cannot say for sure but presumably given the number of such beings, they did. In the bible angels are spirits lower in rank and position than seraphs and cherubs.

* THE WORD The spirit creature that later came tto be known as a human as Jesus Christ

JEHOVAH'S WITNESS

Go to other posts related to ....

ANGELS , DEMONS and ...SATAN THE DEVIL

NOTE All posts I write represent my personal faith based beliefs as one of Jehovah's Witnesses

[brunumb]

[Replying to post 47 by JehovahsWitness]

Biblically, God created other intelligent beings* with free will because his love moved him to share the miracle of life and love.

What life and what love existed before God created anything? It may be poetic to claim that God is love, but it is actually quite meaningless.

[Diagoras]

Thanks for offering an answer to some of my questions. You come across as patient and helpful, so I do appreciate that. I suspect that I present as more annoying by questioning everything, so apologies in advance.

He didn't "need" a family per se (The God of the bible is completely self sufficient, and perfectly happy alone) but he knew that others could enjoy life as much as he does if he created them and he desired to share that gift (see Act 20:35).

I do question the idea that God’s ‘perfectly happy alone’ when he’s apparently created millions of different species, presumably to share the gift of life with them. A large proportion of that life (I’m willing to bet) doesn’t get to enjoy life as much as he does, as it is predated upon by other, more powerful species - or endures suffering brought about by parasites or bacteria.

Furthermore, if God ‘loves life’ so much, why is he bothering to create ‘spirit creatures’, which don’t seem to have any of the usual characteristics of life as it’s usually defined? Do spirits breathe and consume food? Do they age? Reproduce? By what mechanism do they interact with their surroundings and each other? I’m anticipating an answer along the lines of ‘pure thought or essence’, but that’s nothing like ‘life’ at all.

Strictly speaking it is more accurate to speak of "celestial beings" (or "spirits" or "spririt creatures") than angels because the word angel means "messenger". The first spirit created, The Word* would not have needed to convey any messages (since the two - the Word and YHWH (Jehovah/Yahweh) were alone, presumably for countless millennials see 1 John 1:1a.

This just further puzzles me. Creating ‘The Word’ for no apparent purpose other than to exist with God for ‘countless millenia’? Is that phrase being used to explain away something happening ‘before’ God created Time? Or just meaning ‘a really long time, but I don’t want to be pinned down to specifics’? Taken at face value, ‘countless’ implies ‘infinite’, which causes a significant problem for any story that has something happening ‘after’ an infinite time.

Whether subsequent spirits served in the capacity of "messengers" (angels) we cannot say for sure but presumably given the number of such beings, they did.

Any way to more precisely quantify ‘the number’? And what exactly would ‘serving’ entail (in any capacity) toward a ‘completely self-sufficient and perfectly happy’ God? What would God have them do that he couldn’t do for himself?

Unfortunately, the more answers I receive about biblical stories, the more confused I get and the more questions occur to me. I sometimes think I must have been a very annoying child, always asking ‘Why’? Maybe that’s why I was strongly drawn to science, not religion.