Is it necessary for the Bible to be inerrant?

[otseng]

Is it necessary for the Bible to be inerrant and still be authoritative? Can the Bible be authoritative while still have errors in it?

Also up for discussion is what is meant by the Bible and inerrancy.

As is the case for all debates in TD&D, it is assumed the Bible is authoritative and is not up for debate.

[otseng]

N.T. Wright is considered one of the world's leading Biblical scholars. He has does not subscribe to inerrancy.

My book on scripture’s authority, Scripture and the Authority of God, makes clear where I stand. I take the whole of scripture utterly seriously, and I regret that many who call themselves “inerrantists� manage to avoid the real challenge at its heart, that is, Jesus’ announcing that in and through his work God really was “becoming king� over the world in a whole new way. So I don’t call myself an “inerrantist� (a) because that word means what it means within a modernist rationalism, which I reject and (b) because it seems to me to have failed in delivering a full-blooded reading and living of what the Bible actually says. It may have had a limited usefulness as a label against certain types of “modernist� denial, but it buys into at least half of the rationalist worldview which was the real problem all along.

https://religionnews.com/2014/06/02/n-t ... errantist/

N.T. Wright commented on Bart Erhman's upbringing of being an inerrantist:

"He comes from, as he says frequently, from a very very very conservative Christian background which he then threw over, for whatever reason, but in that very narrow restricted background, it's basically all or nothing. You either have every single syllable of the Bible is literally true or if the glass cracks the glass cracks. And it's like actually some very traditional Catholics who if the Pope is wrong on one issue he's quite possibly wrong on everything. Now I've never lived in that kind of sharply-defined narrow world. I've never had to break out of it.

[JehovahsWitness]

As I said, there is no need to debate specific points, I am trying to assertain to what degree you believe Gods thoughts as recorded in scripture have been mixed with human thinking.

To confligate a few spelling mistakes, inversions of fixed expressions, omissions and one or two failed attempts to corrupt its contents to wholesale declarations that our current bible is interwoven with fiction, fabrication and errors is absolutely unwarranted and unsupported by what we know about the transmission of scripture.

I was going to post a response, but I think it's going to open a huge can of worms. ]

Your position has opened them whether you wish to deal with them or not.

FABTICATED STORIES OR REAL EVENTS

Did the Exodus take place?

Can we dismiss John's statement that Jesus (The Word) existed before the earth was created?

Was Jesus claim to be older than Abraham words put in his mouth by over enthusiastic biographies?

Did Jesus really walk on water or was this a made up story ?

I am not asking for a discussion whether these points are historical realities or not but am asking the general point, barring metaphor or miracle, does the bible contain entirely fabricated narratives, commands and stories which in reality originated in the imagination of human writers ?

That is the real crux of the matter worms or not. To claim the bible contains fabricated narratives and manmade doctrine undermines its truthfulness and reliability regardless of claims such fabrications are "unimportant" or "irrelevant to salvation".






JW

Go to other posts related to...

THE BIBLE : AUTHORSHIP & TRANSMISSION and ... BIBLICAL INERRANCY

[tam]

Peace to you,

Then no, the bible is not (and cannot be) authoritative - and this is REGARDLESS of whether the bible is errant or inerrant.

Well, for the purposes of this thread (and this subforum), the authority of the Bible is assumed and is not open for debate.

Yes, I understand that rule for this subforum, but that is an authority that you are giving the bible, and others either agree with or agree to respect that in this subforum. Making the discussions here more along the lines of such and such is true "according to the bible..."


I don't really understand how the authority of the bible can be assumed if the question for debate is asking if the bible can be authoritative and errant at the same time. Nevertheless, I posted support from the bible to show that it does not teach the doctrine of inerrancy, and it also does not teach that it is the highest authority for a Christian.




Peace again to you!

[tam]

Peace to you Eloi,

[Replying to tam]

So you are relying on your own mind ...

That is not what I said.


Peace again.

[tam]

Peace to you!

You did not ask this question of me, but I hope you do not mind if I respond.

[Replying to post 137 by JehovahsWitness]

I am not asking for a discussion whether these points but am asking the general point, barring metaphor or miracle, does the bible contain entirely fabricated narratives, commands and stories which in reality originated in the imagination of human writers ?

I know of no fabricated narrative or story that originated in the imagination of human writers. But we do have a record of at least one command that was given by Moses - not because it was true from the beginning - but as an allowance for the hard-hearts of the people.


Some Pharisees came to him to test him. They asked, “Is it lawful for a man to divorce his wife for any and every reason?�

“Haven’t you read,� he replied, “that at the beginning the Creator ‘made them male and female,’ and said, ‘For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and the two will become one flesh’? So they are no longer two, but one flesh. Therefore what God has joined together, let no one separate.�

“Why then,� they asked, “did Moses command that a man give his wife a certificate of divorce and send her away?�

[Jesus] replied, “Moses permitted you to divorce your wives because your hearts were hard. But it was not this way from the beginning. I tell you that anyone who divorces his wife, except for sexual immorality, and marries another woman commits adultery.�


And of course the prophet Jeremiah said that the lying pen of the scribes has handled the law falsely.


So we have Christ to teach us what is true, to lead us into all truth, to reveal God to us as God truly is.

Christ is the Truth, Image, and Word of God.



**


Paul sometimes shared what he believes to be true, but gives a command that comes from HIM (not the Lord):

To the married I give this command (not I, but the Lord): A wife must not separate from her husband. 11 But if she does, she must remain unmarried or else be reconciled to her husband. And a husband must not divorce his wife.

12 To the rest I say this (I, not the Lord): If any brother has a wife who is not a believer and she is willing to live with him, he must not divorce her. 13 And if a woman has a husband who is not a believer and he is willing to live with her, she must not divorce him.



If he admits it himself that it came from him and not the Lord, how can that be inspired? Paul's letters are not inspired, though he does share things in his letters that he learned from Christ. But he can also make mistakes (at least he did so earlier in his ministry when he first came to Christ and was still learning; still had baggage from his former time as a Pharisee). Mistakes such as teaching people to judge (and even shun a brother), when Christ said not to judge.

What business of mine is it to judge those outside the church ? Are you not to judge those inside? - Paul (in his second letter to the Corinthians, even though the letter is labeled as his first letter)


Christ of course said NOT to judge.

Paul learned though:

Therefore let us not pass judgment on one another any longer, . Romans 14:13



We can know that judging those inside the church (as well as judging those outside the church) is wrong, if we hold all things up to the Light (Christ is the Light).




Peace again to you,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy

[tam]

Peace to you!

[Replying to post 130 by tam]

I would add that all references to scripture, ALL, refer to the Torah and Prophets as the NT was not collected yet. Even the word scripture is a suspect term as the plain meaning in the Koine is writings. Scripture appears to be an English invention.

And there stands a lot of mistranslation, misleading translation and insertions in the NT.

Hebrews has a couple in the KJ. Chapter 4:9 omits Sabbath altogether but its there in the Greek.

Yes, that is interesting. I am more familiar with the NIV, which translates "Sabbath rest", so I knew it was in there. I did not know the KJV left it out. That being said, I have discovered that the NIV takes a few liberties of its own in other places.

https://biblehub.com/interlinear/hebrews/4.htm

That link also shows Christs actual name as translated, Joshua. Just scroll to verse nine.

Also interesting, thank you, I had not noticed. That would be His name translated into English. (though I think the Joshua being referred to here in this verse is the Joshua who led Israel after Moses died)




Peace again to you,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy

[otseng]

To claim the bible contains fabricated narratives and manmade doctrine undermines its truthfulness and reliability regardless of claims such fabrications are "unimportant" or "irrelevant to salvation".

I've made no claim either way. I've claimed it is not necessary to believe in inerrancy to be a Christian and to accept the Bible as authoritative.

Even if the Bible has errors, it is still true and reliable and trustworthy. This is obviously true because when people generally talk about the Bible, they are referring to translations. We regard Bible translations as true, reliable, and trustworthy -- even when they have errors in them (at a minimum they have copyist errors).

When people speak about the Bible, the only time it refers to the autographs is when talking about inerrancy. Since the autographs do not exist, it is a doctrine rooted in the ethereal.

Rejecting the doctrine of inerrancy does not mean we claim the Bible is full of errors so we can just throw out the entire Bible. Ironically, it is only those who adhere to inerrancy that would need to throw out the Bible if there is a single error in it.

It is possible to have a high view of scripture while not accepting inerrancy. As I've pointed out, C.S. Lewis and N.T. Wright both have this position. These men are well respected across denominational lines.

We can go on and discuss how to approach the Bible if it's not inerrant. But before we go there, what is your position on the question in the OP? Is it necessary for the Bible to be inerrant and still be authoritative? Can the Bible be authoritative while still have errors in it?

[otseng]

2 Peter 1:21 is another proof text for the doctrine of inerrancy.

The term inspiration explains the process by which God communicated His message through human beings into the written words found in the Bible without any error. How could imperfect men be expected to produce a perfect Bible? skeptics often ask. Peter answers that question: For no prophecy was ever made by an act of human will, but men moved by the Holy Spirit spoke from God (2 Peter 1:21).

https://ptv.org/devotional/the-bible-is ... -inerrant/

[2Pe 1:20-21 KJV] 20 Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation. 21 For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake [as they were] moved by the Holy Ghost.

It's a bit of a stretch to claim this passage means that every single word in the Bible is inerrant. First off, it does not explicitly say this. Also, even if prophets spoke the direct words of God, it doesn't necessarily mean that refers to every written word in the Old Testament (or New Testament). We have OT prophetic books and we have non-prophetic books. The only book in the NT that claims to be prophetic is Revelation. Also, like 2 Tim 3:16, the purpose of the passage is not to make a claim on the nature of scripture, but rather how it should be applied.

[2Pe 1:19 KJV] 19 We have also a more sure word of prophecy; whereunto ye do well that ye take heed, as unto a light that shineth in a dark place, until the day dawn, and the day star arise in your hearts:

[JehovahsWitness]

To claim the bible contains fabricated narratives and manmade doctrine undermines its truthfulness and reliability regardless of claims such fabrications are "unimportant" or "irrelevant to salvation".

I've made no claim either way.

I did not say you did. *I* am stating the above, in short I am going on record that as one of Jehovah's Witnesses I hold that ...:

The bible contains no fabricated narratives, commands or accounts which in reality originated solely in the imagination of human writers ?

Although no translation is "inspired" nor can any be considered "perfect" none of the bible's today contain fabricated narratives and stories presented as historical fact that in fact originated in the imagination of humans.

To confligate a few spelling mistakes, inversions of fixed expressions, omissions and one or two failed attempts to corrupt its contents to wholesale declarations that our current bibles are interwoven with fiction, fabrication and errors is absolutely unwarranted and unsupported by what we know about the transmission of scripture.

If that is not what you are saying you will no doubt see no need to challenge any of the above. If you choose to challenge the above please be so kind as to present concrete examples so I can clearly see what you are talking about.



JW





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To learn more please go to other posts related to...

BIBLICAL INERRANCY , , AUTHORSHIP/TRANSMISSION and ... RISK OF CORRUPTION

[otseng]

The bible contains no fabricated narratives, commands or accounts which in reality originated solely in the imagination of human writers ?

Although no translation is "inspired" nor can any be considered "perfect" none of the bible's today contain fabricated narratives and stories presented as historical fact that in fact originated in the imagination of humans.

To confligate a few spelling mistakes, inversions of fixed expressions, omissions and one or two failed attempts to corrupt its contents to wholesale declarations that our current bibles are interwoven with fiction, fabrication and errors is absolutely unwarranted and unsupported by what we know about the transmission of scripture.

If that is not what you are saying you will no doubt see no need to challenge any of the above.

I can generally accept that. So, I'll take it then you accept the statement it is not necessary for the Bible to be inerrant while being authoritative.