Have we let Christ down?

[marco]

Remove talk of miracles and divine families, angels and demons and take a man with a mission to spread warmth and love among people. "In my metaphorical heaven, there are luxurious rooms for the needy, the sore at heart, the meek and the downtrodden.Don't fight with each other; don't harbour grudges, but learn to get on."

There's nothing wrong with this. It glorifies man and tells the humblest they are equal in humanity to the greatest. In a world built on these ideas, people will be happy and indeed the lion will lie down, metaphorically, with the lamb.


But in a world that needs sun gods and rain gods, punishment and rewards, and status of being special, Jesus becomes Messiah, messenger of God, a second Adam, whatever that might mean, and finally a god himself, equal to the biblical God we all love and with a half-brother, the Holy Ghost, none other. Saints proliferate as demi-gods and angels come and go from heaven, announcing private details. Mary the earthly mother replaces Juno as Queen of Heaven.

Did Jesus, in his humble preaching claim this? Did he overstep himself in his parables and metaphors so that all sorts of people could extract their own interpretations, each claiming they know Jesus better than anyone else?

Do we have the Jesus that Jesus intended?
Is Christianity in many ways a mockery of what Christ taught?

[marco]

[Replying to post 1 by marco]

I'm not endorsing resurrections, nativities, epiphanies or ascensions. I am looking at a preacher who said some really nice things and a few impractical ones.

If the substance of his message was, indeed, that we should make the best of our world and be kind to those around us, or farther afield, what's wrong with that? If his words were hijacked and his good intentions twisted by odd people like Paul, is that the fault of the Nazarene? He wasn't a god - just a good man.

[Tcg]

If the substance of his message was, indeed, that we should make the best of our world and be kind to those around us, or farther afield, what's wrong with that?

If that were the substance of his message, there would be nothing wrong. Unfortunately, even in the gospels, it also included rather dire outcomes for those who weren't convinced by his message.

If his words were hijacked and his good intentions twisted by odd people like Paul, is that the fault of the Nazarene? He wasn't a god - just a good man.

This is where it gets a bit murky. Paul's story comes later in the tales of Jesus, but if I remember correctly, his writings preceded the gospels. What if we have it the wrong way around? What if the gospel writers wanted to present Jesus kinder than he was?

Following a kinder Jesus certainly beats longing for the Revelation version, but is it accurate? Can we truly know? Perhaps accuracy doesn't matter as long as people are finding a Jesus that helps live better lives. I'm not sure it does, however. I suspect kind people, and those hoping to be kind, find a kind Jesus.

It might not be Jesus helping them find kindness, but them transforming Jesus to reflect their kindness. Sadly, it may work the other way as well. I doubt many would vote the author of Revelation as the person they'd most like to meet in real life.


Tcg

[marco]

If that were the substance of his message, there would be nothing wrong. Unfortunately, even in the gospels, it also included rather dire outcomes for those who weren't convinced by his message.

Perhaps his publicists added this for colour. A man who turns the other cheek and never says raca wouldn't play with swords or threaten damnation.

Following a kinder Jesus certainly beats longing for the Revelation version, but is it accurate? Can we truly know? Perhaps accuracy doesn't matter as long as people are finding a Jesus that helps live better lives. I'm not sure it does, however. I suspect kind people, and those hoping to be kind, find a kind Jesus.

Yes, in a way Jesus suffered bullying - and perhaps as a sensitive boy he was mercilessly bullied. Paul grabs hold of Jesus and re-writes his message. It's nice to think he was a man who wore flowers in his hair and wished everyone well. But the Church needed penalties; it could not survive without damnation. So we have Jesus Mark 2 as well as Mark 1. As for Revelation, we can dismiss this as rubbish written by an imbecile. It makes a bigger betrayal of Jesus than ever Judas did.

From what we gather Jesus was a man of 30 something when he perished, but in the coming weeks he will become a manger baby. We love our legends.

[Tcg]

Perhaps his publicists added this for colour. A man who turns the other cheek and never says raca wouldn't play with swords or threaten damnation.

We could also conclude that a man who plays with swords and threatens damnation wouldn't turn the other check or refrain from saying raca.

Are we unearthing the real Jesus by accepting or rejecting stories based on our preference? Perhaps we are creating our own Piltdown Jesus.


Tcg

[William]

William: Whatever one thinks Jesus is, one takes that with them to The Next World.
One will know then if one has 'let Christ down' or not. The question itself cannot be answered by anyone else.

[Elijah John]

Do we have the Jesus that Jesus intended?
Is Christianity in many ways a mockery of what Christ taught?

It is likely that Jesus taught love of God and neighbor. Your scenario is agnostic utopian at best. Yes, love of neighbor, but you are omitting the love of God bit.

It is unlikely that the real, historical Jesus preached his own martyrdom as a blood atonement, or that he believed was the 2nd Person in a Divine Trinity.

It is likely that Jesus, a first century Shema-professing Jew, would have considered Jesus-worship a form of idolatry. I doubt he would be pleased at what has been wrought in his name.

[Divine Insight]

Do we have the Jesus that Jesus intended?

It's impossible to say since Jesus didn't write anything down himself. All we have concerning Jesus are hearsay rumors that don't even agree with each other.

Therefore it's impossible for us to know what Jesus might have intended. All we could possibly do is push onto Jesus what we would like to belief he might have intended. And by doing this we all create our own imaginary Jesus. No one living today can claim to know Jesus. If they do, all they are really doing is pretending in their own mind that Jesus agrees with their ideals.

Is Christianity in many ways a mockery of what Christ taught?

Necessarily so. Christianity is a widely diverse and confused religion. Those who claim to be Christians passionately disagree with each other over what Jesus might have actually taught.

William: Whatever one thinks Jesus is, one takes that with them to The Next World.
One will know then if one has 'let Christ down' or not. The question itself cannot be answered by anyone else.

The assumes the mystical magical aspect of things where what Jesus taught will become the basis for judgement in an afterlife.

The problem with this is that those who believed in Jesus but got the wrong ideas of what he taught would then be innocent. It could only be Jesus' fault that they didn't get the correct message. And that wouldn't be a just judgement.

So a confused message hardly helps the superstitious idea of a God that is going to pass judgement on us based on how well we understand a poorly delivered message. In fact, this actually proves this religion to be false. If it were true then the message would be crystal clear and no one would be confused about what it might have been. That's clearly not the case, thus the religion cannot be true.

[Tcg]

Do we have the Jesus that Jesus intended?
Is Christianity in many ways a mockery of what Christ taught?

It is likely that Jesus taught love of God and neighbor. Your scenario is agnostic utopian at best. Yes, love of neighbor, but you are omitting the love of God bit.

It is unlikely that the real, historical Jesus preached his own martyrdom as a blood atonement, or that he believed was the 2nd Person in a Divine Trinity.

Is there something other than your personal preference that causes you to conclude one is likely and the other unlikely?

Are you basing your conclusion on anything other than the version of Jesus you have created?


Tcg

[Divine Insight]

Do we have the Jesus that Jesus intended?
Is Christianity in many ways a mockery of what Christ taught?

It is likely that Jesus taught love of God and neighbor. Your scenario is agnostic utopian at best. Yes, love of neighbor, but you are omitting the love of God bit.

It is unlikely that the real, historical Jesus preached his own martyrdom as a blood atonement, or that he believed was the 2nd Person in a Divine Trinity.

It is likely that Jesus, a first century Shema-professing Jew, would have considered Jesus-worship a form of idolatry. I doubt he would be pleased at what has been wrought in his name.

If that were the case, then he shouldn't have left it to others to write down his message via hearsay rumors. The fact that the message isn't clear proves, at the very least, that Jesus couldn't have been a messenger from an just trustworthy God.

So this idea that Jesus was misunderstood doesn't help.