What belifs make a Christain?

[Donray]

For me to ask a question in another topic I need to understand what beliefs a Christain must have to be called a Christian.

From my understanding in using this board, several online religious course, and my
knowledge on the bible I have come to the following:

There are only two beliefs that all Christians must have:

1: That Mary was a virgin and God created a baby in her.
2: Jesus was crucified and rose from bring dead.

It does matter if you think the bible is 100% true or 100% stories and myths.
It does not matter if ware magic underwear or not.
It does not matter if you are baptized or not.
It does not matter if your gay or not.
It does not matter what rituals you perform.
It does not matter if you belong to one of thousand Christain cults and main religions.
It does not matter if you pray or attend a church.

Nothing else matters.

Am I correct?

[Divine Insight]

(6. Christians can't be perverts because immorality makes them depart from Christianity.)

But this is denied by most Christians. Most Christians proclaim that all men are sinners including themselves. Therefore all Christians must be immoral, at least to some extent. Otherwise they would be perfect and without sin which they claim is impossible.

So Christians can indeed be perverts by their own theological demands. In fact, to claim that they are totally flawless violates the very foundational concept of Christianity that they need to be forgiven of their sins by Jesus.

Yes, here on this site one need only identify oneself as a Christian. But sincerity is implicit in that identification.

I see major problems with this. You say, "But sincerity is implicit in that identification."

Sincerity about what?

If you don't have a good definition for what it means to be a Christian then how can it be determined whether a person is sincere in their claim or not?

I feel that I'm a prime example of this:

I was born into a "Christian Family". This automatically makes me a "Christian". In fact Richard Dawkins has often stated how utterly absurd this truly is, and I agree with Richard Dawkins on this point. None the less Christian families consider their young children to be "Christians" simply because this is the religion of the family.

I was formally baptized as a child in a Christian Church by a Christian Pastor. Now it's official. I"m officially a "Baptized Christian". I've even been taught that this cannot be undone.

Later when I became older I went to the altar and accepted Christ as my Savior. In the Christianity I was brought up in this is called being "Born Again". And it was indeed a sincere act on my part. So now I have become an officially "Baptized and Born Again Christian". And once again, I was taught by everyone, including my own mother, that this cannot be undone. Once saved, always saved. That's what they taught and believed in my "Christian Church".

So according to these teachings I'll be a Born Again Christian for the rest of eternity and there's nothing I can even do to change that.

So what happened? Well, once I became a "Born Again Christian" I decided to study the word of God (i.e. the Bible) and teach it to others so that everyone, including myself, could understand clearly exactly what God expects from us and why it was necessary for Jesus to give his life to save ours.

The problem is that when I studied the Bible in-depth I came to the crystal clear realization that it cannot be true and that it is filled with extreme self-contradictory claims as well as highly immoral actions by the God it is describing. It also required that the God it describes must necessarily be a complete idiot and cannot possess any level of maturity or intelligence at all. In short, I discovered that the entire religion is a man-made scam. The Yawheh described in the OT cannot be real, and that Jesus could not possibility be the virgin born Son of Yahweh offered up as the sacrificial lamb to pay for the sins of men.

So now what? Does this mean that I'm no longer a "Christian"?

As far as I'm concerned it doesn't. Nothing can erase the fact that I am a formally Baptized and Born Again Christian. All that is water over the dam and cannot be erased. That much will remain true for all of eternity.

So today what I am is a "Christian" who has simply realized that the entire thing was nothing more than a man-made sham. I was lied to by pastors, parents, siblings and friends who all assured me that this religion was true, when in fact they clearly had no clue what they were talking about. They were simply unable to recognize that they too had been scammed. Although, fortunately some of them did eventually realize this later in life.

My point is that a Christian who has been betrayed by a fake religion is still a "Christian". That can never be undone.

So when you say that a person must be "sincere" when they claim to be a "Christian", exactly what is it that they need to be sincere about?

If they have to believe in something in particular, then why not put that into the rules?

What exactly do they need to believe? Isn't that the question of the thread?

Do they need to believe that the immature unintelligent God described in the OT represents a real God?

Do they need to believe that Jesus is the miraculous virgin-born Son of Yahweh?

Do they need to believe that Jesus died to pay for their sins?

Do they need to believe that Jesus rose from the dead and ascended to heaven to sit at the right-hand of Yahweh?

If they aren't required to believe these things, then how am I not a Christian?

I am a Christian who was betrayed by an immoral religious scam. And I will always be a "Christian" who has been scarred by this man-made hideous religious plague.

That is history over the dam, and can never be erased.

So until there is a specific definition of what it means to be a "Christian" then how can my sincerity be questioned?

In fact, a lot of people claim that the only thing required to be a "Christian" is to have the same moral values associated with Jesus. And ironically the moral values that people associate with Jesus appears to be quite subjective anyway.

If having similar moral values to Jesus qualifies a person as a "Christian" then there can be no doubt that I'm a "Christian". I don't need to believe the superstitious claims of the religion to have moral values equal to, or exceeding those, attributed to Jesus.

[Menotu]

[Replying to post 1 by Donray]

My experience is Christians not much care what others consider them. What matters is what they consider themselves.
I find it highly unlikely that many would care to speak to a list of this-or-that for defining their belief system.
Heck - many of them can't agree among themselves! Maybe that's the real reason.....?

[Divine Insight]

[Replying to post 1 by Donray]

My experience is Christians not much care what others consider them. What matters is what they consider themselves.
I find it highly unlikely that many would care to speak to a list of this-or-that for defining their belief system.
Heck - many of them can't agree among themselves! Maybe that's the real reason.....?

The term "Christian" had indeed become meaningless, or perhaps it's even more correct to say that it has always been meaningless. It's meaningless in the sense that it had no definite definition. As you say, even Christians themselves have different ideas of what it means.

At one point in my life it basically means that we "Christians" believe that the Old Testament is at least a valid and correct description of God and his interactions with mankind. And I don't see how anyone can deny that the OT itself makes many proclamation of what this God is demanding of humans. Not the least of which is the Ten Commandments.

So it would seem to me that belief that the OT correctly describes God in a trustworthy way is necessarily part of the theology. The OT is also extremely important to Christian theology as the Christians claim that the OT prophesied the coming of Jesus in precise detail. Something the Jews clearly disagree with.

I also don't see how any Christian can reject the idea of the virgin birth of Jesus as this is clearly a major claim of the NT. And certainly not his death and resurrection, and ascent to heaven to sit at the right-hand of a monotheistic God who he himself is supposed to me.

But clearly all of these things are no longer required to claim to be a "Christian". In today's modern world it's apparently ok to reject huge chunks of the OT as basically not representing God's views at all. In fact, we see on these very forums where people who call themselves "Christians" argue that Jesus wasn't even the Son of God, and perhaps never did rise from the dead, or die as payment for anyone's sins.

The other thing we see a lot of today are "Christians" who basically renounce the churches, renounce the Bible, and yet still claim to have a "Personal Walk with Jesus".

And a lot of people claim that by simply following or agreeing to the moral values taught by Jesus that's sufficient to be a "Christian". The Bible or doctrines that the religion is founded upon is basically irrelevant to them.

So basically the term "Christian" has become ill-defined and pretty much useless as a meaningful label. If everyone is afraid to define it, then it cannot have any credible meaning.

[bjs]

On this site we define a Christian as someone who says that he/she is a Christian.

I have not found that to be a practical definition, so I limit my discussions to what I call orthodox Christianity. In terms of doctrine, it is the beliefs agreed upon by Roman Catholic, Protestant, and Easter Orthodox Christians. These beliefs are summed up in the Apostles’ and Nicene Creeds.

Those are:

I believe in God, the Father almighty creator of heaven and earth and in Jesus Christ, His only Son, our Lord, who was conceived by the Holy Spirit, born of the Virgin Mary, suffered under Pontius Pilate, was crucified, died, and was buried. He descended into hell. On the third day he rose again from the dead. He ascended into heaven and is seated at the right hand of God, the Father almighty. He will come again in glory to judge the living and the dead. I believe in the Holy Spirit, the Holy Catholic Church, the communion of saints, the forgiveness of sins, the resurrection of the body, and the life everlasting.

And:

We believe in one God, the Father, the Almighty, maker of heaven and earth, of all that is, seen and unseen. We believe in one Lord, Jesus Christ, the only Son of God, eternally begotten of the Father, God from God, Light from Light, true God from true God, begotten, not made, of one Being with the Father. Through him all things were made. For us and for our salvation he came down from heaven: by the power of the Holy Spirit he became incarnate from the Virgin Mary, and was made man. For our sake he was crucified under Pontius Pilate; he suffered death and was buried. On the third day he rose again in accordance with the Scriptures; he ascended into heaven and is seated at the right hand of the Father. He will come again in glory to judge the living and the dead, and his kingdom will have no end. We believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord, the giver of life, who proceeds from the Father and the Son. With the Father and the Son he is worshiped and glorified. He has spoken through the Prophets. We believe in one holy catholic and apostolic Church. We acknowledge one baptism for the forgiveness of sins. We look for the resurrection of the dead, and the life of the world to come.

[Donray]

For me to ask a question in another topic I need to understand what beliefs a Christain must have to be called a Christian.

From my understanding in using this board, several online religious course, and my
knowledge on the bible I have come to the following:

There are only two beliefs that all Christians must have:

1: That Mary was a virgin and God created a baby in her.
2: Jesus was crucified and rose from bring dead.

I'm interested why you chose these two as the essential beliefs. I agree with them of course but why didn't you choose any number of other assertions from the bible?

It does matter if you think the bible is 100% true or 100% stories and myths.
It does not matter if ware magic underwear or not.

haha. Wait... are you wearing magic underwear right now?

Don't send a picture. I'll take your word for it...

It does not matter if you are baptized or not.
It does not matter if your gay or not.
It does not matter what rituals you perform.
It does not matter if you belong to one of thousand Christain cults and main religions.
It does not matter if you pray or attend a church.

Nothing else matters.

Am I correct?

I have a different opinion.

I think the two essential Christian beliefs are:

1) That the bible is the inspired word of God
2) That Jesus Christ is God

If a one doesn't believe the bible then they are creating their own religion based on their own beliefs. This is fine of course but its different from christianity where Jesus and the apostles quote scripture as authoritative. And if you think about it logically how could you hold any belief with confidence if you can't use scripture to support it as God's word? I mean we would have chaos there could be like 30,000 sects of christianity and people would just do whatever was right in their own eyes...

If one doesn't believe Jesus is the One True God then He is a false god or no god and then the bible would be in contradiction with itself and collapse. See point #1.

You are saying that Jehovah's Witnesses, Mormons, Armstrongism (Philadelphia Church of God, Global Church of God, United Church of God), Christadelphians, Oneness Pentecostals, Unification Church, Unity School of Christianity, are not Christians.

So, are you really saying all those are not Christian and they only call themselves Christians?

[Elijah John]

@ Ad Hoc. Where does the Bible say that Jesus is the "one true God"? In fact, John 17.3 contradicts this notion, and in that verse Jesus identifies the Father as the one true God.

And regarding "believing the Bible" as a defining characteristic of a Christian, which Bible? Which canon? The RCC? The Eastern Orthodox? Or the Protestant?

[AdHoc]

@ Ad Hoc. Where does the Bible say that Jesus is the "one true God"? In fact, John 17.3 contradicts this notion, and in that verse Jesus identifies the Father as the one true God.

Oh I forgot to mention... that's the one verse I don't accept as God's word. All the rest are good though.

And regarding "believing the Bible" as a defining characteristic of a Christian, which Bible? Which canon? The RCC? The Eastern Orthodox? Or the Protestant?

The KJV of course 39+27

I will also accept NASB, NIV, NRS, NKJV and as much as it pains me to say it... the message.

[Elijah John]

@ Ad Hoc. Where does the Bible say that Jesus is the "one true God"? In fact, John 17.3 contradicts this notion, and in that verse Jesus identifies the Father as the one true God.

Oh I forgot to mention... that's the one verse I don't accept as God's word. All the rest are good though.

And regarding "believing the Bible" as a defining characteristic of a Christian, which Bible? Which canon? The RCC? The Eastern Orthodox? Or the Protestant?

The KJV of course 39+27

I will also accept NASB, NIV, NRS, NKJV and as much as it pains me to say it... the message.

Why not the RCC's Jerusalem and New Jerusalem Bibles?

And OK, so you dismiss John 17.3. Where in the remainder of any canon of the Bible is there a passage which (verbatim) indicates that Jesus is the "one true God"?

Funny, John 17.3 is one of the few verses in the GoJ I do accept.

[Donray]

From what I gather Christians don't have any common belief system. They have no common orthodoxy and no common rituals.

Am I correct?

No wonder it is almost impossible to have a logical discuss about religion on the board where there are many kinds of Christians that have nothing in common.

Christians have thousands of differing bible interpretations.

They don't agree if Jesus is God, a separate Demigod, or all human.

Almost no Christian can tell us what heaven is like. They don't know if it is a physical place somewhere outside earth, a spiritual (not physical) place, if it will be a Earth, etc.

They have no common rituals or wordship methods. Some Christain religious don't belive other so called Christians are Christians.

They cannot agree if gays are evil and will go to hell. Is divorce OK and not?

They cannot even agree on what is required to get into heaven.

[Checkpoint]

@ Ad Hoc. Where does the Bible say that Jesus is the "one true God"? In fact, John 17.3 contradicts this notion, and in that verse Jesus identifies the Father as the one true God.

Oh I forgot to mention... that's the one verse I don't accept as God's word. All the rest are good though.

And regarding "believing the Bible" as a defining characteristic of a Christian, which Bible? Which canon? The RCC? The Eastern Orthodox? Or the Protestant?

The KJV of course 39+27

I will also accept NASB, NIV, NRS, NKJV and as much as it pains me to say it... the message.

Why not the RCC's Jerusalem and New Jerusalem Bibles?

And OK, so you dismiss John 17.3. Where in the remainder of any canon of the Bible is there a passage which (verbatim) indicates that Jesus is the "one true God"?

Funny, John 17.3 is one of the few verses in the GoJ I do accept.

Yes, that is funny, but it brings much sadness.

Two believers. One rejects John 17:3 but accepts the rest of John. The other accepts that verse, along with a few others, but rejects most of John, as being scripture.

How convenient. How much it reminds of another time, when:

Judges 21:25

In those days there was no king in Israel: everyone did that which was right in their own eyes.

Grace and peace to you.