Can we excuse Leviticus?

[marco]

Having watched a film, based on fact, where a young gay man was brutally beaten to death I turned to the enlightenment of Leviticus 20:13.


"If there is a man who lies with a male as those who lie with a woman, both of them have committed a detestable act; they shall surely be put to death. Their blood guiltiness is upon them."

This is apparently God speaking, the architect of universal harmony. Can this verse ever be justified? Apparently so. I learned that if the entire world resorted to homosexuality then Jesus would not have been able to come and redeem mankind. When Jesus did come, the law passed into disuse.

If the entire world had decided to be celibate, that too would have impeded Christ's arrival, so celibacy should also be an abomination. Maybe it is in some quarters though Paul didn't seem to think so.

Do we: Ignore Leviticus and any other bits of the Bible that seem brutal?
Do we say the old law is no longer needed?
Do we say that if a book inspires such hate, it is a bad book?

[JehovahsWitness]

I was not refering to the act, homosexuals acts were, are and always will be bad.

Is this your opinion?

All my posts express my opinion. I believe, as I said on the outset, that God has the right to dictate what is good and bad, ie what is acceptable and unacceptable behaviour. The bible is clear on the topic and as one of Jehovahs Witnesses I whole heartedly agree with it.



JW

If only the gods were out here dictating.

Well personally I believe that inspiring is better than dictating as biblically this involves controlling what is recorded rather than leaving that to the writer. In any case as a bible believing Christian my position is that the sentiments in scripture reflect those of the Most High.

We have but to comply.



Personal opinion,

JW

[Willum]

[Replying to post 51 by JehovahsWitness]

Well personally I believe that inspiring is better than dictating as biblically this involves controlling what is recorded rather than leaving that to the writer. In any case as a bible believing Christian my position is that the sentiments in scripture reflect those of the Most High.

Is that what you personally believe? That is good to know.
Your opinion somehow trumps the moral and logical incongruities posed by the topic?
I personally believe that Leviticus can only be the product of a vile and malevolent mind, or assuming a god inspired it, not a benevolent god at all, but something more adequately described as a demon.

According to Judaic tradition demons:
Cause diseases and plagues. (Check).
Require blood sacrifices. (Check).
Cause ill acts: As described in its promotion of slavery and rape. (Check).

Does your personal belief counteract the direct words of Moses? Overwhelm his law?

I think they do not.

[JehovahsWitness]

Is that what you personally believe?

Yes, that is why I said "personally I believe..."

Does your personal belief counteract the direct words of Moses? Overwhelm his law?

I dont really know what you mean by "counteract" and "overwhelm" the Mosaic law... I see no contradiction if thats what you mean, neither with the letter nor the spirit (the principle).




JW

[Divine Insight]

WHO GETS TO DECIDE WHAT IS GOOD OR BAD?

I do.

If you are going to claim that there exists a God who is "Good" then he had darn well better live up to my standards of what I consider to be good, otherwise how can he be good if he doesn't even pass my criteria of goodness?

Ultimately then we must depend on God to tell us what is good or bad either our god given consciences (which sadly can be perverted or deadened) and more importantly, by His word the bible.

If you say so then this is true for you, not for me.

You're the one who appears to need someone to dictate to you what is good or bad. Why would you need for someone to tell you what's good or bad? You can't decide for yourself?

All you've done is proclaim to the world that you have no clue what constitutes good or bad. Therefore you can't even say whether your God is good or bad. After all, how could you possibly know?

Moreover, you entire argument is based solely on the premise that the Bible is the "Word of God". But how can you even know that? Clearly you can't. Therefore you are even taking someone else's word for that as well.

I have to ask. Are you capable of thinking for yourself? Based on your arguments it certainly appears that you aren't. You're entire argument is that you cannot determine what constitutes good or bad, and that you need someone to tell you. And then you proclaim that the Hebrew Bible is the "word of God", but you clearly cannot know that either.

So yes, you are definitely just voicing random opinions in your posts. Hardly anything worthy of serious debate. Why should anyone care to debate your opinions? It's basically meaningless. It represents nothing other than your own personal thoughts and worldview. Apparently a worldview that you have accepted without a shred of evidence.

[Willum]

[Replying to post 53 by JehovahsWitness]

I would never have expected you to agree that God is better described as a demon.
A demon named "God."
What an excellent and subtle disguise, you must admit.

As to the words, you don't understand... do not ask me to act as your personal dictionary.

DI seems to have summed up the issue very well, at least I can not think of a single argument against:

So yes, you are definitely just voicing random opinions in your posts. Hardly anything worthy of serious debate. Why should anyone care to debate your opinions? It's basically meaningless. It represents nothing other than your own personal thoughts and worldview. Apparently a worldview that you have accepted without a shred of evidence.

With the additional issue, that, if anyone contests your personal opinions, and you are offended by the criticism, you may make a complaint on forum rules, as a "personal attack."
It takes any enthusiasm for learning and debate out of the forum.

However I asked if it is what you believe because you have (in other topics,) stated the abhorrence found in Leviticus - was amoral.
It is what you believe in some context, and is not what you believe in others.

[JehovahsWitness]

... you have (in other topics,) stated the abhorrence found in Leviticus - was amoral.

There is no law in Levitcus which is an "abhorrence". I have an excellent memory and have most of my answers documented in alphebetical order, I'm very confident I have never used the word "amoral" in connection with any part of the bible.

Could you produce a link to the post where you claim I said such a thing?



JW

[JehovahsWitness]

WHO GETS TO DECIDE WHAT IS GOOD OR BAD?

I do.

... I reject the very idea that actions could be said to be wrong at all.

Emphasis MINE

Well, thanks for sharing. I feel confident you won't insist I share your opinion on this. We will just have to agree to disagree.



JW

[Divine Insight]

WHO GETS TO DECIDE WHAT IS GOOD OR BAD?

I do.

... I reject the very idea that actions could be said to be wrong at all.

Emphasis MINE

Well, thanks for sharing. I feel confident you won't insist I share your opinion on this. We will just have to agree to disagree.

JW

Why do Christians resort to such dishonesty and deceit in debates.

You have basically just bore false witness against me by plucking my words out of context and acting like as if that's all I had said.

I had actually said:

No. In fact, I reject the very idea that actions could be said to be wrong at all.

From my perspective morality isn't about actions, it's about intent.

What a cheap shot JW. I can't believe you tried to pull that off here.

[JehovahsWitness]

[Replying to post 58 by Divine Insight]


Well we all have different views on what is good and bad, I have done my best to share mine on the Levitical prohibition of homosexual acts. Your opinion has been duly noted.

If you have nothing else to add I will wish you a most excellent and joy filled week,


JW

[Willum]

[Replying to post 59 by JehovahsWitness]

I think your point was that your god was the ultimate source of good and bad, so we can't judge him.
Or Leviticus' writers by proxy.

Now you are agreeing with the premise that your god is just another entity that, in your words, sic "Well we all have different views on what is good and bad..."

It is difficult to have a conversation with someone who takes both sides of an argument, without any indexes for their fellow conversers, when the context of each position isn't clarified.