It is often claimed here, dismissively, that YHVH is nothing but a "tribal, bronze age god".
Yes, YHVH was worshipped by Bronze Age people. But He is still worshipped, even today. Well beyond the Bronze Age.
Yes, YHVH was worshipped by the the ancient Hebrew tribes. But now He is worshipped by billions, well beyond those tribes.
For debate, what makes YHVH's detractors so certain in their assumption that He is not the eternal, universal God, who actually created and sustains the Universe?
A "tribal, bronze age god"
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A "tribal, bronze age god"
Post #1 My theological positions:
-God created us in His image, not the other way around.
-The Bible is redeemed by it's good parts.
-Pure monotheism, simple repentance.
-YHVH is LORD
-The real Jesus is not God, the real YHVH is not a monster.
-Eternal life is a gift from the Living God.
-Keep the Commandments, keep your salvation.
-I have accepted YHVH as my Heavenly Father, LORD and Savior.
I am inspired by Jesus to worship none but YHVH, and to serve only Him.
-God created us in His image, not the other way around.
-The Bible is redeemed by it's good parts.
-Pure monotheism, simple repentance.
-YHVH is LORD
-The real Jesus is not God, the real YHVH is not a monster.
-Eternal life is a gift from the Living God.
-Keep the Commandments, keep your salvation.
-I have accepted YHVH as my Heavenly Father, LORD and Savior.
I am inspired by Jesus to worship none but YHVH, and to serve only Him.
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Re: A "tribal, bronze age god"
Post #2[Replying to post 1 by Elijah John]
And should the skeptic be so dismissive, and yes even arrogant about things beyond their understanding? And not even allow for the possibility that God exists, and that His revealed name is "YHVH"? A timeless invocation? (Exodus 3.15) And that YHVH created the Universe? (Psalm 121.2)
And should the skeptic be so dismissive, and yes even arrogant about things beyond their understanding? And not even allow for the possibility that God exists, and that His revealed name is "YHVH"? A timeless invocation? (Exodus 3.15) And that YHVH created the Universe? (Psalm 121.2)
My theological positions:
-God created us in His image, not the other way around.
-The Bible is redeemed by it's good parts.
-Pure monotheism, simple repentance.
-YHVH is LORD
-The real Jesus is not God, the real YHVH is not a monster.
-Eternal life is a gift from the Living God.
-Keep the Commandments, keep your salvation.
-I have accepted YHVH as my Heavenly Father, LORD and Savior.
I am inspired by Jesus to worship none but YHVH, and to serve only Him.
-God created us in His image, not the other way around.
-The Bible is redeemed by it's good parts.
-Pure monotheism, simple repentance.
-YHVH is LORD
-The real Jesus is not God, the real YHVH is not a monster.
-Eternal life is a gift from the Living God.
-Keep the Commandments, keep your salvation.
-I have accepted YHVH as my Heavenly Father, LORD and Savior.
I am inspired by Jesus to worship none but YHVH, and to serve only Him.
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Re: A "tribal, bronze age god"
Post #3[Replying to post 1 by Elijah John]
We're talking about the deity who ordered the his chosen people to commit genocide against the Midianites, the Perizzites, the Hivites, the Canaanites, the Girgashites, the Amorites, the Hittites and the Jebusites, yes? The deity who ordered that if someone gathers firewood or otherwise works on the seventh day of the week, the people should throw stones at them until they die?
These aren't incidental details, they are representative of the central story arc of the Hebrew people/scriptures and the core 'ten commandments'; YHWH's main practical and moral directives, respectively. It's difficult to see how one could honestly argue that anything at all was revealed to the ancient Hbrews by an extant deity, if these key aspects were to be excluded. Yet obviously most modern folk recognize that they're rather unpleasant; primitive at best, savage, idiotic or barbaric at worst (as I believe you yourself have argued at times).
That kind of 'arrogant dismissiveness' towards such core aspects of the Hebrews scriptures, while trying to cling to some of the nicer parts as supposedly real revelation would seem to be little more than intellectually vacuous cherry-picking. Even allowing that some parts of those scriptures might 'possibly' have been revealed, there's basically no reason I'm aware of to suppose that's the case and the presumption should surely be in the negative. Far more likely, those few noce passages to be found in those scriptures are just the occasional gems of enlightenment we might expect to find in diverse anthologies of any other ancient people's thinking, were we to study them intently enough.
We're talking about the deity who ordered the his chosen people to commit genocide against the Midianites, the Perizzites, the Hivites, the Canaanites, the Girgashites, the Amorites, the Hittites and the Jebusites, yes? The deity who ordered that if someone gathers firewood or otherwise works on the seventh day of the week, the people should throw stones at them until they die?
These aren't incidental details, they are representative of the central story arc of the Hebrew people/scriptures and the core 'ten commandments'; YHWH's main practical and moral directives, respectively. It's difficult to see how one could honestly argue that anything at all was revealed to the ancient Hbrews by an extant deity, if these key aspects were to be excluded. Yet obviously most modern folk recognize that they're rather unpleasant; primitive at best, savage, idiotic or barbaric at worst (as I believe you yourself have argued at times).
That kind of 'arrogant dismissiveness' towards such core aspects of the Hebrews scriptures, while trying to cling to some of the nicer parts as supposedly real revelation would seem to be little more than intellectually vacuous cherry-picking. Even allowing that some parts of those scriptures might 'possibly' have been revealed, there's basically no reason I'm aware of to suppose that's the case and the presumption should surely be in the negative. Far more likely, those few noce passages to be found in those scriptures are just the occasional gems of enlightenment we might expect to find in diverse anthologies of any other ancient people's thinking, were we to study them intently enough.
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Re: A "tribal, bronze age god"
Post #4Mithrae wrote: [Replying to post 1 by Elijah John]
We're talking about the deity who ordered the his chosen people to commit genocide against the Midianites, the Perizzites, the Hivites, the Canaanites, the Girgashites, the Amorites, the Hittites and the Jebusites, yes? The deity who ordered that if someone gathers firewood or otherwise works on the seventh day of the week, the people should throw stones at them until they die?
I can't see anything wrong with any of those things. Jehovahs actions above only make me love Him more and render him more appealing to me than if he had not done them Love is not made evident by the toleration of evil.
INDEX: More bible based ANSWERS
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 81#p826681
"For if we live, we live to Jehovah, and if we die, we die to Jehovah. So both if we live and if we die, we belong to Jehovah" - Romans 14:8
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 81#p826681
"For if we live, we live to Jehovah, and if we die, we die to Jehovah. So both if we live and if we die, we belong to Jehovah" - Romans 14:8
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Re: A "tribal, bronze age god"
Post #5.
You are kidding, right?
Of course, we should encourage war, genocide and murder to make the world a wonderful place.JehovahsWitness wrote:I can't see anything wrong with any of those things. Jehovahs actions above only make me love Him more and render him more appealing to me than if he had not done them Love is not made evident by the toleration of evil.Mithrae wrote: We're talking about the deity who ordered the his chosen people to commit genocide against the Midianites, the Perizzites, the Hivites, the Canaanites, the Girgashites, the Amorites, the Hittites and the Jebusites, yes? The deity who ordered that if someone gathers firewood or otherwise works on the seventh day of the week, the people should throw stones at them until they die?
You are kidding, right?
.
Non-Theist
ANY of the thousands of "gods" proposed, imagined, worshiped, loved, feared, and/or fought over by humans MAY exist -- awaiting verifiable evidence
Non-Theist
ANY of the thousands of "gods" proposed, imagined, worshiped, loved, feared, and/or fought over by humans MAY exist -- awaiting verifiable evidence
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Re: A "tribal, bronze age god"
Post #6[Replying to post 4 ]
Mithrae: We're talking about the deity who ordered the his chosen people to commit genocide against the Midianites, the Perizzites, the Hivites, the Canaanites, the Girgashites, the Amorites, the Hittites and the Jebusites, yes? The deity who ordered that if someone gathers firewood or otherwise works on the seventh day of the week, the people should throw stones at them until they die?
(I just threw that last one in to underline the funny side of that Christian confusion.)
The post where my questions to you remain unanswered ↦ here
Mithrae: We're talking about the deity who ordered the his chosen people to commit genocide against the Midianites, the Perizzites, the Hivites, the Canaanites, the Girgashites, the Amorites, the Hittites and the Jebusites, yes? The deity who ordered that if someone gathers firewood or otherwise works on the seventh day of the week, the people should throw stones at them until they die?
- JehovahsWitness: I can't see anything wrong with any of those things. Jehovahs actions above only make me love Him more and render him more appealing to me
(I just threw that last one in to underline the funny side of that Christian confusion.)
The post where my questions to you remain unanswered ↦ here
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Re: A "tribal, bronze age god"
Post #7That's a sad commentary on your religious beliefs then. You see nothing wrong with mass killing (by the hand of other people, not God) and torturing people to death by stoning (also by the hand of other people, not God).JehovahsWitness wrote:Mithrae wrote: [Replying to post 1 by Elijah John]
We're talking about the deity who ordered the his chosen people to commit genocide against the Midianites, the Perizzites, the Hivites, the Canaanites, the Girgashites, the Amorites, the Hittites and the Jebusites, yes? The deity who ordered that if someone gathers firewood or otherwise works on the seventh day of the week, the people should throw stones at them until they die?
I can't see anything wrong with any of those things.
Your 'God' is so loving it requires humans to do its dirty work rather than simply speak the acts into action itself. Your god could instantly and painlessly wipe out anyone it desires, yet it seems to require humans to commit genocide and torture.
Your version of 'love' is IMHO wildly distorted by your religion. It truly makes me sad that some people will blindly call something love because its written in their holy scripture.
Re: A "tribal, bronze age god"
Post #8Elijah John wrote: It is often claimed here, dismissively, that YHVH is nothing but a "tribal, bronze age god".
Yes, YHVH was worshipped by Bronze Age people. But He is still worshipped, even today. Well beyond the Bronze Age.
Yes, YHVH was worshipped by the the ancient Hebrew tribes. But now He is worshipped by billions, well beyond those tribes.
For debate, what makes YHVH's detractors so certain in their assumption that He is not the eternal, universal God, who actually created and sustains the Universe?
This detractor's door is WIDE open for the tiniest waft of evidence that YHVH/Jehovah/Yahweh/Whatever exists outside of human imagination.
We have successfully establish that YHVH is as imaginary as any other god.
We have successfully established that this biblical god cannot even compete with a carrot in terms of demonstrable reality.
My certainty is very high …
But my door is WIDE open.
Evidence would be just lovely.
BTW, the oldest notions of "God" appear to have been girls. Passing them off as the genocidal, misanthropic, homophobic, racist new boy god with different names just doesn't work.
Not that the new boy god is ever shown to exist outside the human imagination.
Which means that folks are free to imagine YHVH in any way they choose …
Even as …
Isn't human imagination a wondrous thing …?the eternal, universal God, who actually created and sustains the Universe
Divine, really.
"God" … just whatever humans imagine it to be.
"Scripture" … just whatever humans write it to be.
"Scripture" … just whatever humans write it to be.
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Re: A "tribal, bronze age god"
Post #9Because if you read the Bible you can see that this bronze age God has the same ignorance as the bronze age people who invented him.Elijah John wrote: For debate, what makes YHVH's detractors so certain in their assumption that He is not the eternal, universal God, who actually created and sustains the Universe?
With all due respect to your favorite religion, it's basically not only an insult to human intelligence, but it's even an insult to the very idea of what a supreme being should be.
Why should I believe that the creator of the universe is an immature jealous idiot who, not unlike Donald Trump, hates everyone who doesn't worship him.
Please explain why I should think that we were created by an ignorant jealous idiot?
The fact that billions of people embrace this idea does not say much about them.
This religion basically demands that anyone who believes in it must necessarily have a very low opinion of themselves. The religion demands this. And of course, they must also have a very low opinion of their creator as well. That's just comes with the theology. It's mandatory. Especially in Christianity where this God is supposedly so inept that he had to have humans brutally crucify him on a pole just so he can forgive them for having been extremely poorly designed by him.
I just don't see how any argument can be made that this God is anything other than a complete idiot. It has to be a man-made fable. No actual God could be this dumb.
The fact that billions of people still support these ancient myths as though they should be taken seriously is the greatest embarrassment of humanity. I think it just proves that we aren't as far removed from apes as we'd like to believe.
If a person wants to be a theist the least they could do, IMHO, is go out and find a religion that isn't an embarrassment to both humanity and the very notion of a God.
I would be extremely hard-pressed to find a religion that portrays a more ignorant God than the Abrahamic religions do.
Of all the religions in the world, the Abrahamic religions are the easiest to dismiss.
[center]
Spiritual Growth - A person's continual assessment
of how well they believe they are doing
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[/center]
Spiritual Growth - A person's continual assessment
of how well they believe they are doing
relative to what they believe a personal God expects of them.
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Re: A "tribal, bronze age god"
Post #10Zzyzx wrote: .Of course, we should encourage war, genocide and murder to make the world a wonderful place.JehovahsWitness wrote:I can't see anything wrong with any of those things. Jehovahs actions above only make me love Him more and render him more appealing to me than if he had not done them Love is not made evident by the toleration of evil.Mithrae wrote: We're talking about the deity who ordered the his chosen people to commit genocide against the Midianites, the Perizzites, the Hivites, the Canaanites, the Girgashites, the Amorites, the Hittites and the Jebusites, yes? The deity who ordered that if someone gathers firewood or otherwise works on the seventh day of the week, the people should throw stones at them until they die?
You are kidding, right?
I am perfectly serious about what I said. Your words however are your own and I claim no ownership of them.
JW
INDEX: More bible based ANSWERS
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 81#p826681
"For if we live, we live to Jehovah, and if we die, we die to Jehovah. So both if we live and if we die, we belong to Jehovah" - Romans 14:8
http://debatingchristianity.com/forum/v ... 81#p826681
"For if we live, we live to Jehovah, and if we die, we die to Jehovah. So both if we live and if we die, we belong to Jehovah" - Romans 14:8