A "tribal, bronze age god"

[Elijah John]

It is often claimed here, dismissively, that YHVH is nothing but a "tribal, bronze age god".

Yes, YHVH was worshipped by Bronze Age people. But He is still worshipped, even today. Well beyond the Bronze Age.

Yes, YHVH was worshipped by the the ancient Hebrew tribes. But now He is worshipped by billions, well beyond those tribes.

For debate, what makes YHVH's detractors so certain in their assumption that He is not the eternal, universal God, who actually created and sustains the Universe?

[Tcg]

And should the skeptic be so dismissive, and yes even arrogant about things beyond their understanding?

Why would you think YHVH is beyond our understanding?

A least as far as how he is presented in the Bible, this tribal, bronze age god is not very complex. It would be quite a challenge to keep track of all the versions his various followers try to morph him into, but understanding the Bible's claims about him isn't difficult.


Tcg

[Tcg]

Yes, YHVH was worshipped by Bronze Age people. But He is still worshipped, even today. Well beyond the Bronze Age.

A friend of mine owns a 1916 Stanley Steamer. The fact that he still drives it doesn't turn it into something other than a 1916 Stanley Steamer.

Referring to YHVH as a bronze age god refers to his origin, the date of his creation. The same as with the Steamer, the fact that some worship YHVH today doesn't change his date of origin.


Tcg

[Divine Insight]

And should the skeptic be so dismissive, and yes even arrogant about things beyond their understanding?

Why would you think YHVH is beyond our understanding?

A least as far as how he is presented in the Bible, this tribal, bronze age god is not very complex. It would be quite a challenge to keep track of all the versions his various followers try to morph him into, but understanding the Bible's claims about him isn't difficult.


Tcg

Exactly. Trying to claim that the Biblical God is beyond our understanding is just ignorance piled on top of ignorance.

For one thing, think of how absurd this claim is. If this God is beyond our understanding then how could anyone claim to love him? Or even defend that he represents morality?

How can a theist claim to love something they claim to not be able to understand?

And speaking of arrogance, why should a theists claim to be able to understand God while decreeing that non-theists cannot understand their God?

Clearly these apologetic arguments for these ancient mythologies don't hold water.

This religion is dead. Sure there are still billions of people who have been taken in by it via all the various religious cults this religion has splintered to become. But that doesn't give the religion any credibility. To the contrary, it even shows that the theists themselves can't even make a consistent or coherent story from it.

The diverse Jews, Muslims, and Christians can't even agree with each other, or even within their own groups what this God is supposed to represents, or be like.

It's not only an obvious fable, but it's not even a coherent fable. Even the theists can't agree on what they would like their God to be.

Billions of people believe in this religion? Where?

All I see are billions of confused theists who passionately disagree with each other over what they think their fantasy God should stand for.

There isn't even any consistency between them. We may as well be talking about a billion different religions actually.

[SallyF]

.

We're talking about the deity who ordered the his chosen people to commit genocide against the Midianites, the Perizzites, the Hivites, the Canaanites, the Girgashites, the Amorites, the Hittites and the Jebusites, yes? The deity who ordered that if someone gathers firewood or otherwise works on the seventh day of the week, the people should throw stones at them until they die?

I can't see anything wrong with any of those things. Jehovahs actions above only make me love Him more and render him more appealing to me than if he had not done them Love is not made evident by the toleration of evil.

Of course, we should encourage war, genocide and murder to make the world a wonderful place.

You are kidding, right?

JW is the Christian who has informed us that "some people NEED to be killed".

From her Christian organisation …

"Who in our time demonstrate such obedience to Gods commandments on love? Who have been persecuted, imprisoned, thrown into concentration camps, or executed because they would not take up weapons against fellow believers or even unbelievers of other nations? The record of this century's history answers: only Jehovah's Witnesses." Watchtower 1989 May 1 p.28

As long as it's OTHER people who do the killing.

[marco]

Yes, YHVH was worshipped by the the ancient Hebrew tribes. But now He is worshipped by billions, well beyond those tribes.

We touch some grass with a flame and very soon a whole region is engulfed in fire. A list of names of those who were born into Christianity does not in any way speak to its veracity. Rather it shows how easy it is to convert continents, if not by persuasion, then by the sword and birth rate. I see nothing commendable in millions of South American natives forced into Catholicism nor in Muslims bowing 5 times a day in a land where blasphemy means death.

For debate, what makes YHVH's detractors so certain in their assumption that He is not the eternal, universal God, who actually created and sustains the Universe?

I view Yahweh in the same way as I might view Iago or Lady Macbeth. There's no question of detracting; they are fictions, well constructed of course. Without the merest shred of doubt I believe Yahweh is a fiction. There may well exist an omnipotence, but Yahweh surely isn't it. And why? He is humanoid; he talks, he regrets, he gets angry, he does what seem to be silly things (with Moses and Adam) and apparently ignorant of the physics of the spectrum he announced a rainbow is his covenant; instead of decreeing an Ark he orders a geriatric man of some 600 summers to build one, and accommodate every type of beast there is, including birds! Instead of acting as divine judge, he sends some frogs to persuade an Egyptian pharaoh to change his mind.

I have merely recounted what the Bible says and that is sufficient to reduce the deity to ridicule. The power that made the universe might well be beyond my comprehension; the being in the Bible is the comical creation of warlike men.

[Zzyzx]

.
“Bronze Age� may NOT apply to the Middle East during Bible writing times.

Although classifications differ, the Bronze Age is considered to have given way in the Middle East to the Iron age by about 1200 BCE.

Tribalism, however, evidently maintained through Bible times and well beyond (even to the present day).

[SallyF]

.
“Bronze Age� may NOT apply to the Middle East during Bible writing times.

Although classifications differ, the Bronze Age is considered to have given way in the Middle East to the Iron age by about 1200 BCE.

Tribalism, however, evidently maintained through Bible times and well beyond (even to the present day).

Which reminds me …

Shortly after Jehovah's Dome of Heaven-filling Flood of Genesis mythology, the Tubal-Cain character began the Iron Age just a short time after the genocide of the God of Love.

Our very good Christian friends at Answers in Genesis helpfully give us the Flood date of 2348BCE …

Which will be very close to the beginning of the TRUE Iron Age.

Christianity being built on a rock of solid evidence, of course.

[JehovahsWitness]

Billions of people believe in this religion? Where?

IS A "BRONZE AGE TRIBAL GOD" AN ACCURATE DESCRIPTION OF YHWH ?

• No. Millions of people today worship still worship YHWH (Jehovah) the God of Abraham, myself included. Nobody can prove Jehovah did not exist long prior to his being worshipped, so all talk of his being "invented" or "created" during or prior to the bronze age is mere speculation

TRIBAL OR NATIONAL?

• Strictly speaking worship of YHWH (Yahweh/Jehovah) was officially adopted as the national religion by the Israelites, which were made up of 12 tribes. So Jehovah cannot accurately be called "a tribal god".

BRONZE AGE

• Some claim Jewish scriptures dates from the 6th century BCE yet there is of course evidence of YHWH worship long prior, notably with the Jewish temple. Even if Jewish scripture were older, I have never come across the idea that worship of a given god is historically limited to the date period written records of that worship were first produced. Indeed, many African and indigenous cultures don't even have a written history yet archaeological evidence supports the existence of well established ancient religious systems.
  

  The bible presents YHWH as existing before time began and having been worshipped by the angels and eventually by the first humans and individuals and groups thereafter. This has never been disproved and I see no reason therefore not to believe worship of Jehovah/YHWH constitutes the universe's oldest "religion".

As highlighted in the opening paragraph, the evidence indicates that, far from dying out at the end of the "bronze ages", YHWH worship continued on into the iron age and further in a modified form into our modern era. Given the above "a bronz age tribal god" is not an accurate description of the God JEHOVAH/YHWH.



JW





JEHOVAHS WITNESS

[Tcg]

IS A "BRONZE AGE TRIBAL GOD" AN ACCURATE DESCRIPTION OF YHWH ?

• No. Millions of people today worship still worship YHWH (Jehovah) the God of Abraham, myself included. Nobody can prove Jehovah did not exist long prior to his being worshipped, so all talk of his being "invented" or "created" during or prior to the bronze age is mere speculation.

As has already been demonstrated, the fact that some still worship YHWH doesn't change his origin.

Even if everyone in the world alive today worshiped YHWH, that would do nothing to change the character of the unevidenced god described in the Bible.


Tcg

[marco]

Millions of people today worship still worship YHWH (Jehovah) the God of Abraham, myself included. Nobody can prove Jehovah did not exist long prior to his being worshipped, so all talk of his being "invented" or "created" during or prior to the bronze age is mere speculation

There is speculation that leads people to accept fantasy and there is speculation that offers concrete explanations. It doesn't take much speculation to mention a few escapades of Jehovah and conclude he comes straight from human heads, with a dark human heart.


TRIBAL OR NATIONAL?

• Strictly speaking worship of YHWH (Yahweh/Jehovah) was officially adopted as the national religion by the Israelites, which were made up of 12 tribes. So Jehovah cannot accurately be called "a tribal god". [/quote]
  
  The word tribal is not used as an antonym of national but refers to tribes and their ways. A tribe is a group descended from a common ancestor; in the case of the Israelites, Jacob. That they were split into twelve subdivisions doesn't make the use of "tribal" inappropriate. So Jehovah was indeed a god associated with ancient tribes.
  Lest I get a list of definitions, I know the word comes from the Latin tribus and I am familiar with the tributaries of its meaning.
  

  
  The bible presents YHWH as existing before time began and having been worshipped by the angels and eventually by the first humans and individuals and groups thereafter. This has never been disproved and I see no reason therefore not to believe worship of Jehovah/YHWH constitutes the universe's oldest "religion".

  I think we cannot enter the area of proof as far as tracing the authenticity of ancient beliefs goes. I wonder what merit there is in sharing faith with cavemen. Do we not eventually emerge into the sunlight of progress and modernity? At best Jehovah provides some entertainment. Films in the modern age have him stepping titanically on stage, full of sound and fury, employing the voices of Hollywood's best actors. The story goes on.