God can't Heal the Criminally Ill

[Divine Insight]

The old worn-out apology that God can't heal the criminally ill because he doesn't want to turn us into robots doesn't hold water.

Surely everyone will agree that it is sick to want to do evil things. It's not a healthy state of mind. It would be ludicrous to claim that it is healthy.

Therefore people who have a desire to do bad things are mentally unhealthy.

Healing people who are mentally unhealthy does not turn them into robots.

In fact, think about. If you had a brain tumor that was causing you to do horrible things and a doctor discovered you brain tumor was the cause of your evil thoughts and behavior and removed the brain tumor you would be forever grateful to the doctor for having healed your problem.

The same thing necessarily holds true evil humans. They thoughts are not healthy thoughts. No one can argue with that. Therefore their mind is not a healthy mind.

Thus a God who could heal the criminally insane would be doing them a great favor and not turning them into simple-minded robots.

So the excuse that God cannot create mentally healthy humans is a failed apology. There is no excuse for a God who cannot create perfectly healthy human beings.

And even if we allowed that this God might be inept as a creator, it would be absurd to try to claim that the God can't even heal those who have unhealthy thoughts. We would end up having a God who is basically incapable of doing much of anything correctly.

So there is no excuse for any humans that have been created by an intelligent God to have unhealthy thoughts.

These apologies that you are being fed by this religion simply don't hold water. In order to believe these apologies you would need to embrace the idea that the God is an inept creator who can't even create healthy humans. Nor could he heal the unhealthy ones.

So this religion has been pulling the wool over your eyes for centuries. There is no excuse for a God who creates mentally unhealthy humans, and can't even heal them.

The only way you could try to salvage this apology is to try to claim that having evil thoughts and desires is not unhealthy. But think of how silly such an excuse would be.

There simply is no excuse for a God who either creates unhealthy humans, or one that cannot heal unhealthy humans to the point where he needs to cast them into eternal damnation. If they are defective no one can be blamed for that but the God who created them.

So Christianity has nothing but lies to off us. There is no God who is going to cast unhealthy people into hell for not being healthy. It simply makes no sense. If a God actually existed that God could have created all healthy humans in the first place. Or at the very least, he could heal them rather than sending them off to be eternally punished like as if it was their fault for being sick.

If there is a creator God who created humans. that this God would be responsible for the mental health of every single human. Without exception.

Christianity tries to place the blame on humans for being unhealthy, but that simply cannot be made to work.

Question for Debate:

How can anyone continue to defend these obviously failed apologies for this religion? The claim that God doesn't want robots is a failed apology. Being healed does not make a person a robot.

[Divine Insight]

[Replying to post 9 by Divine Insight]

Can you produce a post contrasting "mental illness" (the criminally ill) with being a robot, where the words "criminally ill" (or mentality ill) appearing anywhere other than in your imagination?



JW

What in the world are you even thinking JW? This has nothing to do with robots actually.

The bottom line is simple. Having criminal thoughts is necessarily unhealthy. Therefore anyone who has criminal thoughts has an unhealthy mind.

So here's the only question you need to concern yourself with:

If a doctor could cure an unhealthy mind, would doing so cause the person to become a robot?

Clearly not.

Therefore the excuse that God can't cure the criminally mentally ill because he doesn't want to be worshiped by robots is nonsense.

The free will excuse is nonsense.

The whole religion is clearly nonsense.

There's no other conclusion that can be had.

You've been scammed by a religion that has been teaching you things that are clearly false. Why continue to defend this religion that has been teaching you to believe false things?

There is no excuse for a God who cannot cure the mentally unhealthy individuals.

If you were mentally unhealthy and always had evil thoughts and a doctor cured you, you would most likely be extremely grateful. You wouldn't be screaming at the doctor that he robbed you of your free will to be mentally ill.

So the Christian apology that God can't cure the mentally ill doesn't hold water.

Never mind about the robots. That was never a valid apology to begin with.

[1213]

Why it is not healthy?

So you're going to try to argue that it's healthy to want to do bad things?

I am saying, it is not any disease, so it is no health issue. It is issue about what person wants and likes.

[Divine Insight]

Why it is not healthy?

So you're going to try to argue that it's healthy to want to do bad things?

I am saying, it is not any disease, so it is no health issue. It is issue about what person wants and likes.

You aren't making any sense. Are you trying to say that normal healthy individuals would want and like to do terrible harmful things?

In order for your argument to hold you would need to argue that it's perfectly healthy to want to do evil things and have a genuine desire to go to hell.

This religion has apparently convinced you to believe utterly absurd things.

[Menotu]

[Replying to post 1 by Divine Insight]

I've heard a lot of excuses from believers. But I've never heard this excuse; it's a new one on me.

This seems strange to me because I've heard this excuse for decades.

The question comes up often. If God wants people to be good why didn't he just make good people in the first place?

The most popular apologetic excuse is that God doesn't just want "robots" but instead he wants people who will freely choose to be good.

But there are extreme problems with this. The first problem is that having a desire to be evil cannot be considered to be healthy. Such an argument would be insane.

Therefore everyone who freely chooses to do evil things is necessarily unhealthy mentally speaking. All criminal thought is necessarily unhealthy.,

To cure an unhealthy mind would not be the same as making a person into a robot. They would still have free will. They would simply have a healthy mind that they could use to make healthy choices.

This is a fundamental problem with this entire religion. This religion tries very hard to push the blame for unhealthy minds onto humans.

Clearly this is not a problem for secularism. If there is no designer God the idea that all human would have perfectly healthy minds would be unrealistic.

However, the moment we invent the idea of a creator God this changes everything. Now it's entirely on the shoulders of the creator to create healthy humans. And if he can't do that he is either inept, or extremely malicious.

There is no excuse for any human to have an unhealthy mind if they had been created by God. And this is especially true of a religion who claims that the creator is going to then punish the human for having an unhealthy mind.

This religion is clearly false. There can be no doubt about it.

A designer God who can't create mentally healthy humans is bad enough. But a God who even refuses to cure them and instead wants to punish them for eternity for having been ineptly designed is far worse.

The religion is clearly absurd. It proves itself to be false.

I don't disagree in general and am not defending anyone, just that I've never heard that excuse.

[1213]

Are you trying to say that normal healthy individuals would want and like to do terrible harmful things?

Normal healthy people want and do evil things.

In order for your argument to hold you would need to argue that it's perfectly healthy to want to do evil things and have a genuine desire to go to hell.

It is not health issue, that is my argument. It has nothing to do with health.

But, what do you say, are you a healthy person?

[Divine Insight]

Are you trying to say that normal healthy individuals would want and like to do terrible harmful things?

Normal healthy people want and do evil things.

That's absurd. If a person wants to do an unhealthy thing, then they can hardly be said to be mentally healthy.

In order for your argument to hold you would need to argue that it's perfectly healthy to want to do evil things and have a genuine desire to go to hell.

It is not health issue, that is my argument. It has nothing to do with health.

Well, I reject that argument as being clearly absurd. Anyone who wants to do anything that is unhealthy has an unhealthy mind. That's true by definition. There's no getting around it.

But, what do you say, are you a healthy person?

Unfortunately I don't live in a perfect world. So it would be foolish of me to claim to be perfectly healthy. I do not claim to be perfectly healthy either physically or mentally.

But what I do claim is that the state of my mental health is beyond my control.

In a secular world this is not a problem. In fact, its to be expected.

However, if I were created by a designing God then the state of my mental health would be totally in the hands of my creator. I certainly couldn't be held responsible for my own mental health.

Fortunately, based on what most people agree on I am apparently quite mentally healthy overall. But as I say, I have nothing to do with that. It's just the way I am, it's not a choice.

In fact, this goes both ways.

The fact that I am extremely mentally healthy overall has absolutely nothing to do with any free will choices I may have made. I was just lucky to be this way.

Pure luck. Certainly not a choice.

The test is easy. Just ask yourself if you even want to do terrible unhealthy things. If the answer is yes, then you have an unhealthy mind., Whether you act on those desires or not is irrelevant. The mere fact that you desire to do them is sufficient. That alone would be the unhealthy aspect of your mind.

As I say, I have no desire to do criminal actions or harm other people. That's not a choice. I didn't choose to not have those desires, I just simply don't have them. We could say that I simply lucked out in nature's crap shoot.

But clearly there are a lot of other people who weren't as lucky as me. But trying to pin the blame on them for being mentally unhealthy would be absurd.

Yet this is precisely what Christianity does.

It not only blames people for being mentally unhealthy, but Christianity even claims that their God is so lame that he can't even cure those unhealthy individuals. Instead, like an idiot, he chooses to be mean and cruel to them and cast them into a state of eternal punishment.

But now the God himself is behaving as a mentally unhealthy entity. He's taking out his wrath on the objects of his own creation. Objects that he could neither design correctly in the first place, nor heal them when they don't turn out to be healthy.

So you see, in a secular world there is no problem because there is no designer who takes his rage out on the objects of his own design simply because he failed to design them correctly.

But in Christianity the problem is irresolvable. The God who creates unhealthy humans and then blames them for being unhealthy would himself be a malicious demon. So Christianity fails. It cannot be true unless we concede that its God is the most mentally ill creature of all.

A God who can't create mentally healthy humans? And can't even heal them when he does create them?

That would be an extremely inept creator God.

And then to punish his defective humans for being defective would make him not only inept, but extremely evil himself.

Christianity cannot be true. I'm sorry to have to inform those who have been taught to believe otherwise. You've been duped by ancient folklore. But at least now you know better.

[1213]

Well, I reject that argument as being clearly absurd. Anyone who wants to do anything that is unhealthy has an unhealthy mind. That's true by definition. There's no getting around it.

Sounds much like circular reasoning. I think it is wrong to say person is sick, if he does bad things. But it is a perfect excuse and probably makes it easier to do bad things, if one can blame something else of his own actions.

[Purple Knight]

In fact, think about. If you had a brain tumor that was causing you to do horrible things and a doctor discovered you brain tumor was the cause of your evil thoughts and behavior and removed the brain tumor you would be forever grateful to the doctor for having healed your problem.

That depends on whether I was the patient or the tumour.

Let's say evil me makes an evil friend, and we do bad things together. Let's say this friend is female and we're a successful serial killer pair.

I get the tumour removed. My relationship is over.

My ex-wife cries every day because evil Purple Knight is dead, an impostor in his place.

She has a funeral for the tumour.

Do things that change our personality not make us different people? Give us separate identities? With a large enough database, I could code my reaction to every potential stimuli and that set of reactions would be indistinguishable from me to an observer. In a real way, it would be me. Another set of reactions, those for evil me, would describe a separate person.

[Divine Insight]

Do things that change our personality not make us different people?

I wouldn't argue against that idea. But let's not forget that we're talking about a situation where their supposedly exists an omniscient God who knows what's actually going on.

If a God sees that a brain tumor is what's causing you to behave the way you do, would he then be justified in blaming you for being that way?

Especially when he could so easily cure you?

Did you freely choose to be inflicted by a brain tumor? I think this is the question.

We can't take our eye off the prerequisites of the question. As secularists we can allow that since the brain tumor is part of your physical make-up then it can be said to be as much a part of you as anything else.

However, as secularists, we would hardly be in a position to be blaming you for the accidents of nature. In the end, all we could do is say that you were inflicted by an unhealthy situation that was beyond your control.

But once we bring the idea of a supposedly omnipotent omniscient God into the picture, then "accidents" can no longer be used as an excuse. In this case, God would be responsible for not having protected you from being inflicted with a brain tumor in the first place. Clearly it's not something that you chose via your own free will choice.

Give us separate identities? With a large enough database, I could code my reaction to every potential stimuli and that set of reactions would be indistinguishable from me to an observer. In a real way, it would be me. Another set of reactions, those for evil me, would describe a separate person.

Again, I agree. And all of this makes perfect sense in a secular world. But it makes no sense in a world where a supposedly omnipotent omniscient God is supposed to be protecting us from evil, and will ultimately be judging us for our actions and behavior later.

So your concerns make perfect sense in a secular world. But they make no sense in a world where a God who supposedly loves us has the capability of protecting us from evil and but refuses to do it, and then turns around and blames us for falling prey to evil.

[Divine Insight]

Well, I reject that argument as being clearly absurd. Anyone who wants to do anything that is unhealthy has an unhealthy mind. That's true by definition. There's no getting around it.

Sounds much like circular reasoning. I think it is wrong to say person is sick, if he does bad things. But it is a perfect excuse and probably makes it easier to do bad things, if one can blame something else of his own actions.

But why would a healthy person want to do evil things?

A healthy person wouldn't be looking for "excuses" to do evil things.

You're stuck in the theological rut of assuming that if someone thinks they could get away with doing evil things they'd jump at the opportunity.

Would you?

If you thought there were no consequences for your actions would you want to go around molesting children and raping young girls, or do any other bad things?

Is not having an excuse the only thing that keeps you "decent"?

If not, then your argument here makes no sense. Even to you, if you simply apply it to yourself.

Keep in mind, any arguments you make to defend Christianity need to apply to you too. If you are a counter-example to your own argument, then your very existence disproves your argument.

So unless you are prepared to claim that you are chomping at the bit to go out and do bad things if you only had a viable "excuse" to do them, then your argument doesn't hold water.