Why does atheism have a suicide problem?

[EarthScienceguy]

Depression is a serious problem with in the greater atheist community and far too often, that depression has led to suicide. This is something many of my fellow atheists often don’t like to admit, but it is true. I know a lot of atheists, myself included, would all like to believe that atheists are happier people than religious believers and in many ways we are. But we also have to accept the reality that in some very important ways we are not.

https://www.huffpost.com/entry/atheism- ... ec613b812b

[bluegreenearth]

[Replying to post 38 by Jagella]

Will any god do, or is the Christian god the only option? Whenever Christian apologists complain about the evils of atheism, I've often wondered if those apologists would be happy if we atheists all started believing in Thor. We wouldn't be atheists anymore!

Actually research tells us yes, any god will do. Worship is a psychological need. So if you want to believe that Thor is god then yes that would actually help you. That is if you can truly believe that Thor is god.

Yes, if you would like to get a large hammer and pray to it and worship the the hammer of Thor meaning learning the theology of the hammer and maybe singing songs about the hammer. It could be a country and it go something like this:

"Oh, Thor don't electrify me with your big big hammer because that would hurt so bad."

So there you go.

The irony in your sarcastic depiction of Thor worship is that some of us are given the same impression about your worship of the Christian God. When you understand why Thor worship seems ridiculous to you, you'll understand why some of us find Christianity equally ridiculous.

[Difflugia]

"Oh, Thor don't electrify me with your big big hammer because that would hurt so bad."

The irony in your sarcastic depiction of Thor worship is that some of us are given the same impression about your worship of the Christian God.

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[Tcg]

That is the question. Why do people consider the burden of living too heavy to bear and why is this associated with atheism?

It's associated with humanity, all humanity, theist and atheist alike.

As I have mentioned previously, the article you cited includes the following conclusion as to why some atheists commit suicide:

• 
  Cognitive have discovered a God shaped hole in our brain, so yes having a lack of faith does make people a suicide risk.
  

  The article you cited draws a very different conclusion:

  • Yes, atheists like many other marginalized minorities can be prone to depression and even suicide in large part due to the horrible behavior of many in the religious majority.
    
    https://www.huffpost.com/entry/atheism- ... ec613b812b
    
    <bolding as used in the article>

There is no mention of a God shaped hole.

No mention of a lack of faith.

No mention of a psychological need to worship.


Tcg

[Jagella]

Actually research tells us yes, any god will do.

OK, then how about worshiping Satan? It's a sure cure for atheism.

Worship is a psychological need.

I feel no desire at all to worship anything. I think worship is idiotic if not pathological.

[Jagella]

[youtube][/youtube]

I love Monty Python. They're the masters of mocking Christianity. They can really dredge up just how stupid religion really is.

[Jagella]

The only thing is, that other person who has a chance at success because a niche freed up can be happy now, because a death equals more resources for them. It's horrible (opinion) to waste resources on an unhappy life when there are happy ones to spend those same resources on.

So we need to free-up resources that are being wasted on the hopelessly miserable so that the conditionally miserable can achieve happiness. Aren't you assuming that we lack the resources to make everybody happy?

How do we decide who is hopeless and who isn't?

If suicide was legal you could just walk into a doctor's office, pay a corpse disposal fee, and done.

I'm wondering which doctors will want to specialize in such medicine. Can you imagine them at parties explaining to people what they do for a living?

It's because suicide is illegal (opinion) that people have to find creative ways to kill themselves that often result in a mess. I would think most people would take the lethal injection over something as likely to leave them paralysed.

Yes, I suppose clean suicide is an improvement over messy suicide. Medical fees tend to be very high, however, so many suicidal people may not be able to afford the cost of doctor-assisted suicide. Do you believe Medicare should cover suicide fees? We don't want only rich people being able to afford clean suicide while the poor must resort to "back-alley" suicides.

It is precisely because I value life so highly that I say we should allow suicide.

That is a paradox. It's like saying that you value old cars so you support auto-wreckers.

I value a person's free will and I believe their life is theirs.

Many people own houses. Are they free to burn those houses down? What we do with what belongs to us can hurt other people.

In a world this overpopulated, every suicide is a precious gift: My life, for all the rest. That doesn't remove value; to me, it emphasises it.

I prefer to actively help people. I cannot do that if I'm dead.

And no, not everyone has people who love them.

Why don't we change that? I'm guessing it will reduce the perceived need for suicide.

[Purple Knight]

So we need to free-up resources that are being wasted on the hopelessly miserable so that the conditionally miserable can achieve happiness. Aren't you assuming that we lack the resources to make everybody happy?

Actually you've been going with the assumption that some resource or combination thereof can make even the most hopeless happy and I simply didn't challenge it.

But no. I'm simply assuming that there may not be a viable way to deliver those resources to that person.

For example, if the person is an ugly female and what she wants is love, it's unlikely.

How do we decide who is hopeless and who isn't?

How about you let the person in question decide that?

I'm wondering which doctors will want to specialize in such medicine. Can you imagine them at parties explaining to people what they do for a living?

I can't see that it's too much more awkward than being a proctologist or a dentist. In a world that sees death for what it is, they would be revered.

Medical fees tend to be very high, however, so many suicidal people may not be able to afford the cost of doctor-assisted suicide. Do you believe Medicare should cover suicide fees? We don't want only rich people being able to afford clean suicide while the poor must resort to "back-alley" suicides.

That's a valid point, and yes, I think Medicare should cover it. If you're going to use that as a lead-in to the very real possibility of doctors encouraging suicide in those who don't want it to save money on treatment, they're already killing the elderly now.

https://www.hospicepatients.org/lynchin ... abled.html

That is a paradox. It's like saying that you value old cars so you support auto-wreckers.

If there were old cars on every street corner nobody wanted, it wouldn't be. If we were all buried in anchovies, anchovies would have no value. They would have negative value; they would be garbage. Similarly, sardine can Earth devalues human life; makes human life less precious as well as lowers the quality of each individual life. And every suicide that takes sardines out of that can makes human life more precious again.

Many people own houses. Are they free to burn those houses down? What we do with what belongs to us can hurt other people.

Yes, they're free to demolish their own houses in any way they see fit that does not hurt others. And there's a difference between, "He burned his house and caught my house on fire," and "His magnificent antique house! It hurt me so to see it burn." You can prevent the former with law. The second isn't feasible to prevent even if you thought it was right to.

Why don't we change that?

Because we can't. The people closest to me say I'm not even capable of love, and even what of that I do have, I can't just will on random people. It doesn't work like that.

[Jagella]

Actually you've been going with the assumption that some resource or combination thereof can make even the most hopeless happy and I simply didn't challenge it.

As far as I know, we never really tried to use our resources to make people happy. It seems to me that we live in a society in which happiness and well-being result from luck or from being "the fittest."

In other words, we are social Darwinists favoring the weak over the strong.

How do we decide who is hopeless and who isn't?

How about you let the person in question decide that?

The people "in question" can decide anything they want, but if they want to be put to death, then we as a society need to make the decision to kill them.

Anyway, if a person decides to die, then we are to put them to death. Is that your position?

I can't see that it's too much more awkward than being a proctologist or a dentist. In a world that sees death for what it is, they would be revered.

So you think people would love and admire death doctors or at least see them as no worse than dentists.

That's a valid point, and yes, I think Medicare should cover it. If you're going to use that as a lead-in to the very real possibility of doctors encouraging suicide in those who don't want it to save money on treatment, they're already killing the elderly now.

Obviously I oppose doctors harming patients in hospices or anywhere else. So why trust them to grant death wishes?

Anyway, thanks for posting that article. I'm well aware of the abuse and neglect of the elderly and the disabled. I must live with it. With our society acting in such an evil way and deceitfully covering it up, it seems very foolish to me for us to grant the disabled the right to die considering that we're already killing them.

Yes, they're free to demolish their own houses in any way they see fit that does not hurt others.

That's just it--I think killing those who presumably want to die does hurt others.

[Purple Knight]

The people "in question" can decide anything they want, but if they want to be put to death, then we as a society need to make the decision to kill them.

Anyway, if a person decides to die, then we are to put them to death. Is that your position?

If the semantics of who's finger is on the button is so important to you, then the doctor need only set up the IV and allow the patient to press the button that will release the lethal injection.

So you think people would love and admire death doctors or at least see them as no worse than dentists.

I would hope. I would hope that in this sardine can Earth, you would see that delicious heart cupcake you may well be eating now as a precious gift of resources from the death doctors and from those who choose suicide.

The population problem might not be that bad yet, but it's getting there.

Obviously I oppose doctors harming patients in hospices or anywhere else. So why trust them to grant death wishes?

You don't have to trust them. Let there be a recording of the patient asking for death.

Anyway, thanks for posting that article. I'm well aware of the abuse and neglect of the elderly and the disabled. I must live with it. With our society acting in such an evil way and deceitfully covering it up, it seems very foolish to me for us to grant the disabled the right to die considering that we're already killing them.

I'm just saying that abuse happens now, so abuse will not be prevented by allowing those who want to die, to do so. In fact, with hospices less crowded, there may be a better opportunity for those who want to be kept alive to receive better individual care.

That's just it--I think killing those who presumably want to die does hurt others.

Well, you clipped the part of my post that explains there's a difference between physically hurting someone and doing something to your own things that they dislike.

Maybe I'm hurt by the fact that George Lucas likes to CGI up his own formerly beautiful work and it strikes me as tantamount to scribbling a moustache on the Mona Lisa. I don't really care how much it hurts me; it's his work to ruin or sell to Disney to ruin.

[Jagella]

If the semantics of who's finger is on the button is so important to you, then the doctor need only set up the IV and allow the patient to press the button that will release the lethal injection.

In that case at least we know that the patient actually "did the deed" although that deed would obviously not be very probable without a lot of help. The doctor is obviously acting as an accomplice.

I would hope that in this sardine can Earth, you would see that delicious heart cupcake you may well be eating now as a precious gift of resources from the death doctors and from those who choose suicide.

So you think we would go hungry without euthanasia freeing up food that is wasted on those worthless sick and disabled people. I think there are other ways to make sure there's enough food.

The population problem might not be that bad yet, but it's getting there.

Yes, population is a problem. Did you ever think we might try contraceptives? it seems less drastic to me to prevent human lives rather than snuffing out the ones that are already here.

Let there be a recording of the patient asking for death.

I suppose that might help ensure that "voluntary" euthanasia is actually voluntary rather than being murder. We still face difficulties in that the patient might feel pressured to commit suicide.

...with hospices less crowded, there may be a better opportunity for those who want to be kept alive to receive better individual care.

Why not build larger, better equipped hospices with personnel better trained to meet the needs of the dying?

Anyway, did you actually read the article you posted? It states:

...looking at the scorecard, some of the elderly and disabled are concluding they just may be better off dead. At least their despair of finding rescue from the dread conditions imposed upon them by our society causes them to think that way. Hope for some is not forthcoming.

I can vouch for this one! I have seen it and experienced it myself. If the disabled want to end their lives, it's because they are treated so badly.

Let's treat the disabled better. That way there will be much less of a drive to euthanize them.