Trinity
Moderator: Moderators
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Chancellor
Post #11
Before you go challenging whether or not the trinity doctrine is true, it's essential that you find out what exactly it is that trinitarians believe. One of the most glaring errors in what you posted is the assertion that trinitarians believe in three Gods. Trinitarians believe there is one God and only one God -- even if they do have this strange belief that God has revealed Himself in three co-equal, co-eternal "persons."canadianhorsefan wrote:If you want to read this on the actual website, go to: http://www.hizmetbooks.org/could_not_answer/9.htm
I should quote this, but I think it's better without all the white. :p
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canadianhorsefan
- Student
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Post #12
Did I say three gods? Sorry, I meat 3-1. I am aware of the Trinitarian theory, and sorry if I made the mistake of not mentioning 3-1.
Even though I believe it's all a lie, sorry.
canadianhorsefan
Even though I believe it's all a lie, sorry.
canadianhorsefan
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Chancellor
Post #13
You're not the first to make the error of saying trinitarians believe in three Gods; though the way some trinitarians explain their doctrine it certainly sounds like three Gods. There appears to be a wide range of trinitarian belief ranging from almost modalist to almost tritheist.canadianhorsefan wrote:Did I say three gods? Sorry, I meat 3-1. I am aware of the Trinitarian theory, and sorry if I made the mistake of not mentioning 3-1.
Even though I believe it's all a lie, sorry.
canadianhorsefan
God the Father, God the Son, God the Holy Spirit
Post #14Sure, the Bible states that God is one.
I think that what it means is that God the Father is one by Himself.
And Jesus and the Holy Spirit are one by themselves.
Just like we are one by ourselves.
But can two or three not be considered one if they are considered a whole?
God said that we and our spouses would become one.
Genesis 2:24
For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and they will become one flesh.
But by ourselves we were one how can we become one with another?
Therefore when Jesus said that he was one with the Father, what could he have meant?
From our perspectives, it would be physically impossible.
But for God (in spiritual limitations). Is it?
Maybe Jesus meant that He and God were totally alike in goodness.
So Jesus prayed that all humans would be one with the Father and Him.
In likeness yes. But we can never be part of God.
But is Jesus like us?
There is a varying difference between how each of us sees this oneness.
God
Perhaps it is easier for us to understand God by looking at Him from three points of view or three different persons.
God the Father represents His Fatherly love towards.us.
This love is unconditional yet authoritative.
God the Son wishes to extend his love in a Brotherly form.
This love is unconditional and friendly.
God the Holy Spirit shows us His love as a stranger.
This love is also unconditional but easily compromised.
But who is the Holy Spirit? Knowing who he/it is crucial to understanding God?
Why a son?
Let us think that, God existed as only the Father and the Holy Spirit in the beginning. But as an expression of His love He (God the Father) created a Son to be part of Himself.
Is it crazy to think that God could create a person totally like Himself yet still totally different?
Who can understand His love?
To us, there is no logic. But to God it is divine love.
For Christians, it is safe to believe that there is a Holy Trinity.
For is Jesus not of God?
And is the Holy Spirit not from God?
While I do not know whether they are combined into one specific being.
But I know that there is a union among the three separate personalities.
That union is the Oneness of God.
I think that what it means is that God the Father is one by Himself.
And Jesus and the Holy Spirit are one by themselves.
Just like we are one by ourselves.
But can two or three not be considered one if they are considered a whole?
God said that we and our spouses would become one.
Genesis 2:24
For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and they will become one flesh.
But by ourselves we were one how can we become one with another?
Therefore when Jesus said that he was one with the Father, what could he have meant?
From our perspectives, it would be physically impossible.
But for God (in spiritual limitations). Is it?
Maybe Jesus meant that He and God were totally alike in goodness.
So Jesus prayed that all humans would be one with the Father and Him.
In likeness yes. But we can never be part of God.
But is Jesus like us?
There is a varying difference between how each of us sees this oneness.
God
Perhaps it is easier for us to understand God by looking at Him from three points of view or three different persons.
God the Father represents His Fatherly love towards.us.
This love is unconditional yet authoritative.
God the Son wishes to extend his love in a Brotherly form.
This love is unconditional and friendly.
God the Holy Spirit shows us His love as a stranger.
This love is also unconditional but easily compromised.
But who is the Holy Spirit? Knowing who he/it is crucial to understanding God?
Why a son?
Let us think that, God existed as only the Father and the Holy Spirit in the beginning. But as an expression of His love He (God the Father) created a Son to be part of Himself.
Is it crazy to think that God could create a person totally like Himself yet still totally different?
Who can understand His love?
To us, there is no logic. But to God it is divine love.
For Christians, it is safe to believe that there is a Holy Trinity.
For is Jesus not of God?
And is the Holy Spirit not from God?
While I do not know whether they are combined into one specific being.
But I know that there is a union among the three separate personalities.
That union is the Oneness of God.
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Chancellor
Re: God the Father, God the Son, God the Holy Spirit
Post #15What you're suggesting is that there are these three divine beings (which really is three deities if you're going to say it the way you're saying it) who are parts of this one larger divine being called "God." You used marriage as an analogy but the problem there is that if you're saying that's a proper analogy then what you have are not one divine being but, rather, three divine beings joined together in a union or partnership and, thereby, making each of the three merely part of God.Jian^sia wrote:Sure, the Bible states that God is one.
I think that what it means is that God the Father is one by Himself.
And Jesus and the Holy Spirit are one by themselves.
Just like we are one by ourselves.
But can two or three not be considered one if they are considered a whole?
God said that we and our spouses would become one.
Genesis 2:24
For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and they will become one flesh.
But by ourselves we were one how can we become one with another?
Therefore when Jesus said that he was one with the Father, what could he have meant?
From our perspectives, it would be physically impossible.
But for God (in spiritual limitations). Is it?
Maybe Jesus meant that He and God were totally alike in goodness.
So Jesus prayed that all humans would be one with the Father and Him.
In likeness yes. But we can never be part of God.
But is Jesus like us?
There is a varying difference between how each of us sees this oneness.
God
Perhaps it is easier for us to understand God by looking at Him from three points of view or three different persons.
God the Father represents His Fatherly love towards.us.
This love is unconditional yet authoritative.
God the Son wishes to extend his love in a Brotherly form.
This love is unconditional and friendly.
God the Holy Spirit shows us His love as a stranger.
This love is also unconditional but easily compromised.
But who is the Holy Spirit? Knowing who he/it is crucial to understanding God?
Why a son?
Let us think that, God existed as only the Father and the Holy Spirit in the beginning. But as an expression of His love He (God the Father) created a Son to be part of Himself.
Is it crazy to think that God could create a person totally like Himself yet still totally different?
Who can understand His love?
To us, there is no logic. But to God it is divine love.
For Christians, it is safe to believe that there is a Holy Trinity.
For is Jesus not of God?
And is the Holy Spirit not from God?
While I do not know whether they are combined into one specific being.
But I know that there is a union among the three separate personalities.
That union is the Oneness of God.
Explanation
Post #16I'm sorry if I sound confusing
Ok, let's clear this up for the non-Christians.
Normally when we say "God" we are calling out to the Father.
But, the Son or H.S. can also be referred to as "God".
So, first of all, these divine beings do not make up one-third of a greater being called "God".
Also, it is not that the three divine beings are merely parts of "God".
But, each of these divine beings are God in Himself and can be collectively known as "God".
God not God nor God is still the Ruler over all creation.
He is the Father.
The Son is part of the Father
And the Holy Spirit is the Father's Spirit. And He is still a mystery to me. I think that this Spirit is a Spirit that is a part of the Father that can come alive as a person or a spiritual energy/presence "spirit" and so be one by Himself/Itself.
Holy Spirit shows Himself as a Person
Matthew 1:20 But after he had considered this, an angel of the Lord appeared to him in a dream and said, "Joseph son of David, do not be afraid to take Mary home as your wife, because what is conceived in her is from the Holy Spirit.
1 Corinthians 12:3 Therefore I tell you that no one who is speaking by the Spirit of God says, "Jesus be cursed," and no one can say, "Jesus is Lord," except by the Holy Spirit.
2 Corinthians 13:14 May the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit be with you all.
2 Timothy 1:14 Guard the good deposit that was entrusted to you - guard it with the help of the Holy Spirit who lives in us.
Titus 3:5 he saved us, not because of righteous things we had done, but because of his mercy. He saved us through the washing of rebirth and renewal by the Holy Spirit,
Hebrews 10 - Christ's Sacrifice Once for All
15 The Holy Spirit also testifies to us about this.
1 John 5 - Faith in the Son of God
6 This is the one who came by water and blood--Jesus Christ. He did not come by water only, but by water and blood. And it is the Spirit who testifies, because the Spirit is the truth.
7 For there are three that testify:
8 the Spirit, the water and the blood; and the three are in agreement. 9 We accept man's testimony, but God's testimony is greater because it is the testimony of God, which he has given about his Son.
Luke 3:22
21 When all the people were being baptized, Jesus was baptized too. And as he was praying, heaven was opened
22 and the Holy Spirit descended on him in bodily form like a dove. And a voice came from heaven: "You are my Son, whom I love; with you I am well pleased."
Luke 2:26 It had been revealed to him by the Holy Spirit that he would not die before he had seen the Lord's Christ.
Holy Spirit as a Person and Spirit of God
Luke 1:67 Zechariah was filled with the Holy Spirit...
Luke 1:41 When Elizabeth heard Mary's greeting, the baby leaped in her womb, and Elizabeth was filled with the Holy Spirit.
Luke 4:1 Jesus, ... was led by the Spirit in the desert,
Acts 5:32 We are witnesses of these things, and so is the Holy Spirit, whom God has given to those who obey him."
Acts 15:8 God, who knows the heart, showed that he accepted them by giving the Holy Spirit to them, just as he did to us.
Acts 19:2 ... "Did you receive the Holy Spirit when you believed?" They answered, "No, we have not even heard that there is a Holy Spirit."
Holy Spirit as a Spirit of God
Psalm 51:11 Do not cast me from your presence or take your Holy Spirit from me.
Luke 2:25 Now there was a man in Jerusalem called Simeon, who was righteous and devout. He was waiting for the consolation of Israel, and the Holy Spirit was upon him.
Luke 4:1 Jesus, full of the Holy Spirit, returned from the Jordan...
Luke 10:21 At that time Jesus, full of joy through the Holy Spirit, said, "I praise you, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, ... "
Acts 2:38 Peter replied, "Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit."
Acts 11:15 "As I began to speak, the Holy Spirit came on them as he had come on us at the beginning. 16 Then I remembered what the Lord had said: 'John baptized with water, but you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit.'
Footnotes
God - God as a term
God - God as a Trinity
God - God the Father
References from the Bible
http://www.biblegateway.com/
Ok, let's clear this up for the non-Christians.
Normally when we say "God" we are calling out to the Father.
But, the Son or H.S. can also be referred to as "God".
So, first of all, these divine beings do not make up one-third of a greater being called "God".
Also, it is not that the three divine beings are merely parts of "God".
But, each of these divine beings are God in Himself and can be collectively known as "God".
God not God nor God is still the Ruler over all creation.
He is the Father.
The Son is part of the Father
And the Holy Spirit is the Father's Spirit. And He is still a mystery to me. I think that this Spirit is a Spirit that is a part of the Father that can come alive as a person or a spiritual energy/presence "spirit" and so be one by Himself/Itself.
Holy Spirit shows Himself as a Person
Matthew 1:20 But after he had considered this, an angel of the Lord appeared to him in a dream and said, "Joseph son of David, do not be afraid to take Mary home as your wife, because what is conceived in her is from the Holy Spirit.
1 Corinthians 12:3 Therefore I tell you that no one who is speaking by the Spirit of God says, "Jesus be cursed," and no one can say, "Jesus is Lord," except by the Holy Spirit.
2 Corinthians 13:14 May the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit be with you all.
2 Timothy 1:14 Guard the good deposit that was entrusted to you - guard it with the help of the Holy Spirit who lives in us.
Titus 3:5 he saved us, not because of righteous things we had done, but because of his mercy. He saved us through the washing of rebirth and renewal by the Holy Spirit,
Hebrews 10 - Christ's Sacrifice Once for All
15 The Holy Spirit also testifies to us about this.
1 John 5 - Faith in the Son of God
6 This is the one who came by water and blood--Jesus Christ. He did not come by water only, but by water and blood. And it is the Spirit who testifies, because the Spirit is the truth.
7 For there are three that testify:
8 the Spirit, the water and the blood; and the three are in agreement. 9 We accept man's testimony, but God's testimony is greater because it is the testimony of God, which he has given about his Son.
Luke 3:22
21 When all the people were being baptized, Jesus was baptized too. And as he was praying, heaven was opened
22 and the Holy Spirit descended on him in bodily form like a dove. And a voice came from heaven: "You are my Son, whom I love; with you I am well pleased."
Luke 2:26 It had been revealed to him by the Holy Spirit that he would not die before he had seen the Lord's Christ.
Holy Spirit as a Person and Spirit of God
Luke 1:67 Zechariah was filled with the Holy Spirit...
Luke 1:41 When Elizabeth heard Mary's greeting, the baby leaped in her womb, and Elizabeth was filled with the Holy Spirit.
Luke 4:1 Jesus, ... was led by the Spirit in the desert,
Acts 5:32 We are witnesses of these things, and so is the Holy Spirit, whom God has given to those who obey him."
Acts 15:8 God, who knows the heart, showed that he accepted them by giving the Holy Spirit to them, just as he did to us.
Acts 19:2 ... "Did you receive the Holy Spirit when you believed?" They answered, "No, we have not even heard that there is a Holy Spirit."
Holy Spirit as a Spirit of God
Psalm 51:11 Do not cast me from your presence or take your Holy Spirit from me.
Luke 2:25 Now there was a man in Jerusalem called Simeon, who was righteous and devout. He was waiting for the consolation of Israel, and the Holy Spirit was upon him.
Luke 4:1 Jesus, full of the Holy Spirit, returned from the Jordan...
Luke 10:21 At that time Jesus, full of joy through the Holy Spirit, said, "I praise you, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, ... "
Acts 2:38 Peter replied, "Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit."
Acts 11:15 "As I began to speak, the Holy Spirit came on them as he had come on us at the beginning. 16 Then I remembered what the Lord had said: 'John baptized with water, but you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit.'
Footnotes
God - God as a term
God - God as a Trinity
God - God the Father
References from the Bible
http://www.biblegateway.com/
Post #17
Here are two articles which describe how the Trinity doctrine fits within the teachings of the ancient Hebrews:
Jesus as God's Wisdom
The Holy Spirit
The second article assumes you have read the first.
Jesus as God's Wisdom
The Holy Spirit
The second article assumes you have read the first.
