The Founders Believed in Secession

[moment_of_faith]

http://www.infowars.com/ron-paul-the-fo ... secession/

In the aftermath of petitions from all 50 states to secede being posted on the White House website and signed by over a million Americans, the secessionist movement has been portrayed as anti-American, unpatriotic and even treasonous. In reality, as Ron Paul has emphasized, it is as American as apple pie and George Washington.

Paul updated his thoughts on secession during an appearance on C-Span today, noting how “The founders believed in it, there’s no prohibition in the Constitution against secession,� adding that the union was voluntary and therefore secession was also voluntary under the tenth amendment.

“They want to put them on a list that they’re committing treason, put them in prison or throw them out of the country – what about the First Amendment,� asked Paul in response to calls by some on the left to have pro-secessionists deported.

“The principle of secession is very important, not so much for the purpose of seceding, but the purpose of saying to the federal government ‘if you mistreat us that’s what we might consider’,� said Paul, noting that New England talked about secession in the early 19th century and was not condemned for doing so.


Read the rest here -- http://www.infowars.com/ron-paul-the-fo ... secession/

[Goat]

I it was 62 million to 59 million. True constitutionalists don't want Obama. Obama is a spread the wealth around kind of guy.

The vast amount of those people are not the kind of 'constitutionalists' you are. And, as for 'spread the wealth around kind of guy', if you actually read the bible, and believe it, so was Jesus, so was Jesus.

I would rather a 'spread the wealth' kind of guy rather than 'Let's rip off the middle class and poor, and concentrate the wealth to the top 1%'

[moment_of_faith]

I it was 62 million to 59 million. True constitutionalists don't want Obama. Obama is a spread the wealth around kind of guy.

The vast amount of those people are not the kind of 'constitutionalists' you are. And, as for 'spread the wealth around kind of guy', if you actually read the bible, and believe it, so was Jesus, so was Jesus.

I would rather a 'spread the wealth' kind of guy rather than 'Let's rip off the middle class and poor, and concentrate the wealth to the top 1%'

Who do you think he is taking it from? The Middle Class. Anyone over 250,000 dollars. I'm sorry to tell you that is the middle class that normally creates jobs for others.

When we lose that we will be a third world country. The rich and the poor just as the bible says it will be at the end of times.

also the bible says if you don't work you don't eat.

[Goat]

I it was 62 million to 59 million. True constitutionalists don't want Obama. Obama is a spread the wealth around kind of guy.

The vast amount of those people are not the kind of 'constitutionalists' you are. And, as for 'spread the wealth around kind of guy', if you actually read the bible, and believe it, so was Jesus, so was Jesus.

I would rather a 'spread the wealth' kind of guy rather than 'Let's rip off the middle class and poor, and concentrate the wealth to the top 1%'

Who do you think he is taking it from? The Middle Class. Anyone over 250,000 dollars. I'm sorry to tell you that is the middle class that normally creates jobs for others.

When we lose that we will be a third world country. The rich and the poor just as the bible says it will be at the end of times.

also the bible says if you don't work you don't eat.

How many people do you know that earn 250,000? or more?? 4.2 % of the people That's not "Middle class"

We tried the 'low taxes for the rich". Guess what.. that is one of the reasons that our deficit is SOOO big. The Bush tax cuts..

The last year under Clinton, the budget was balanced, and there was even a very minor surplus to bay down the debt.

Then, it was 'tax breaks for the rich.

And, you know what the ONE thing these tax breaks did not provide?? More jobs.

[moment_of_faith]

I it was 62 million to 59 million. True constitutionalists don't want Obama. Obama is a spread the wealth around kind of guy.

The vast amount of those people are not the kind of 'constitutionalists' you are. And, as for 'spread the wealth around kind of guy', if you actually read the bible, and believe it, so was Jesus, so was Jesus.

I would rather a 'spread the wealth' kind of guy rather than 'Let's rip off the middle class and poor, and concentrate the wealth to the top 1%'

Who do you think he is taking it from? The Middle Class. Anyone over 250,000 dollars. I'm sorry to tell you that is the middle class that normally creates jobs for others.

When we lose that we will be a third world country. The rich and the poor just as the bible says it will be at the end of times.

also the bible says if you don't work you don't eat.

How many people do you know that earn 250,000? or more?? 4.2 % of the people That's not "Middle class"

We tried the 'low taxes for the rich". Guess what.. that is one of the reasons that our deficit is SOOO big. The Bush tax cuts..

The last year under Clinton, the budget was balanced, and there was even a very minor surplus to bay down the debt.

Then, it was 'tax breaks for the rich.

And, you know what the ONE thing these tax breaks did not provide?? More jobs.

The reason we can't balance our budget is because Obama wants to tax everyone and they don't want to hire and then throw in Obama care and all the extra crap it has in it makes people not want to hire, Then we bailed out GM, Dodge, Fannie, Freddie, banks and so on. The government is now in the car market, housing market, banks, student loans, so all kids will be enslaved to the government when they default because no jobs unless it will be a government job then we will look like Greece.

Until we get Americans back to work we will have major problem and the only way to get Americans back to work is to lower taxes, open up the pipe line, drilling and so on.

We are in a no win situation. Times are going to get hard. Thousands of people have been laid off or fired since the election. IS that getting better or worse?

http://www.csmonitor.com/USA/DC-Decoder ... rich-video

[cnorman18]

I don't think anyone, no matter how far to the Right, would characterize Supreme Court Justice Antonin Scalia as anything but a "Constitutionalist."

Here is his opinion on secession (my emphasis):

... I cannot imagine that such a question could ever reach the Supreme Court. To begin with, the answer is clear. If there was any constitutional issue resolved by the Civil War, it is that there is no right to secede. (Hence, in the Pledge of Allegiance, “one Nation, indivisible.�) Secondly, I find it difficult to envision who the parties to this lawsuit might be. Is the State suing the United States for a declaratory judgment? But the United States cannot be sued without its consent, and it has not consented to this sort of suit...

Seems pretty clear to me.

[99percentatheism]

I don't think anyone, no matter how far to the Right, would characterize Supreme Court Justice Antonin Scalia as anything but a "Constitutionalist."

Here is his opinion on secession (my emphasis):

... I cannot imagine that such a question could ever reach the Supreme Court. To begin with, the answer is clear. If there was any constitutional issue resolved by the Civil War, it is that there is no right to secede. (Hence, in the Pledge of Allegiance, “one Nation, indivisible.�) Secondly, I find it difficult to envision who the parties to this lawsuit might be. Is the State suing the United States for a declaratory judgment? But the United States cannot be sued without its consent, and it has not consented to this sort of suit...

Seems pretty clear to me.

There's a reason why the "supreme court" was and is a bad idea. Remeber, without the goverment existing in full force, the so-called Jusitce is out of a job.

When the people find that they can vote themselves money, that will herald the end of the republic.


Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch.

Liberty is a well-armed lamb

contesting the vote.

They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither safety nor liberty.

- Benjamin Franklin

[cnorman18]

I don't think anyone, no matter how far to the Right, would characterize Supreme Court Justice Antonin Scalia as anything but a "Constitutionalist."

Here is his opinion on secession (my emphasis):

... I cannot imagine that such a question could ever reach the Supreme Court. To begin with, the answer is clear. If there was any constitutional issue resolved by the Civil War, it is that there is no right to secede. (Hence, in the Pledge of Allegiance, “one Nation, indivisible.�) Secondly, I find it difficult to envision who the parties to this lawsuit might be. Is the State suing the United States for a declaratory judgment? But the United States cannot be sued without its consent, and it has not consented to this sort of suit...

Seems pretty clear to me.

There's a reason why the "supreme court" was and is a bad idea.

So, throw out the Constitution and start over? I wouldn't think you'd be in favor of that, given the current secular/atheist/antiChristian milieu that you keep shouting about...

The rest I agree with, including the Second Amendment, though probably with a different attitude than your own.

Secession just isn't going to happen. NO state is going to be willing to start issuing its own passports, repairing its own roads, providing for its own military defense, feedlng and housing its own poor and elderly, and everything else that the Federal government does. See how much support you'll get from the old folks when they find out they'll be giving up Social Security, Medicare, and all the rest. See how much support you get from the young when they find out all their Federal loans will instantly come fully due and payable, and all their scholarships vanish like dust in the wind. That's not all; every US military base will be closed and all the hardware, including all weapons, vehicles, and other movable equipment removed, and all the civilians who work there instantly unemployed; National Parks will be closed and unfunded; there will be no air-traffic control, andno supervision of air traffic, customs, or the borders, no rail service, no MAIL service (a few hundred thousand more people out of work), and on and on and on. None of these things are "handouts"; they are the services that we all PAY FOR with our Federal taxes.

This is not going to happen.

The "secession movement" is a sore-loser temper tantrum fantasy that will soon pass. Let's move on, shall we?

[Choir Loft]

http://www.infowars.com/ron-paul-the-fo ... secession/

In the aftermath of petitions from all 50 states to secede being posted on the White House website and signed by over a million Americans, the secessionist movement has been portrayed as anti-American, unpatriotic and even treasonous. In reality, as Ron Paul has emphasized, it is as American as apple pie and George Washington.

Paul updated his thoughts on secession during an appearance on C-Span today, noting how “The founders believed in it, there’s no prohibition in the Constitution against secession,� adding that the union was voluntary and therefore secession was also voluntary under the tenth amendment.

“They want to put them on a list that they’re committing treason, put them in prison or throw them out of the country – what about the First Amendment,� asked Paul in response to calls by some on the left to have pro-secessionists deported.

“The principle of secession is very important, not so much for the purpose of seceding, but the purpose of saying to the federal government ‘if you mistreat us that’s what we might consider’,� said Paul, noting that New England talked about secession in the early 19th century and was not condemned for doing so.


Read the rest here -- http://www.infowars.com/ron-paul-the-fo ... secession/

The gun control issue lies at the core of governmental distrust and cultural division. Politically its a raw nerve.

The Newtown tragedy, coming on the heels of a divisive national election, happened at a time when tempers should have been cooling down. Instead gasoline was poured upon the blaze and the flames reach higher. Was this coincidence or design?

On the left, Diane Feinstein has announced publicly and privately that she wants all civilian guns confiscated. All of them. All types. Period. On the right, we've got the NRA, the only large national organization that even pretends to stand for constitutional law and reason. Between the two our left wing media has been caught editing statements and reports of events to the advantage of anti-gun interests. Facts have been altered and deliberately misrepresented. Lies abound. Illegal actions by the president and his attorney general (I'm referring to Eric Holder and the Fast and Furious incident) go unpunished. Government hypocrisy and corruption stands above the law.

In this atmosphere of government hypocrisy and media lies is it any wonder that an issue, which in otherwise normal times might be addressed logically and dispassionately, is becoming a rallying point for separatists of every flavor and in every sovereign state? It's the culture, not the guns. This is but the most obvious evidence of something at work in the land to tear the nation into smaller pieces.

Call it geopolitical division, call it economic sectioning or call it secession it is evidence of the imminent collapse of the American Empire.

The American culture is drenched in sin and debauchery. You know it. I know it. It hides no longer in dark places. Sin is everywhere and it is proudly hailed. The ancient snake is loosed upon us and it's our culture that has opened its cage! There is no aspect of rebellion against God, humanity and common decency that isn't proudly hailed today as "the new normal". You've heard and read the remarks as well as I. It's all there in our faces. Those that love God and right are in the minority and the minority is shrinking - not growing. It's the culture and it has become so obvious that its beginning to rip the nation apart. The gun issue is ridiculous. In more rational times it wouldn't even be important - a debate on the side of legislative activity over more important matters. Except that it isn't a side issue any more!

Every empire in history has succumbed to the pressures of cultural division, economic collapse, political corruption and military defeat. The pressures have always resulted in geographic division. The United States isn't immune to these pressures. In fact, we fought a great war on our own soil nearly two hundred years ago over the issue of Federal control and the right of state sovereignty. At the time, the government was in the right politically, economically, culturally, spiritually and morally. Today its different. If there is a center to moral collapse and wickedness of every sort it lies in Washington, DC. If there is an epicenter for an earthquake that may tear our nation into smaller pieces its located in Washington. DC no longer rules and judges in the right. We have all been lead into servitude of military and commercial interests. The rights of the common man and the rule of law have been ignored at the highest level.

We see division and distrust in every email chain that circles the country - reminding us of the way things used to be! Reminding us of what is right and how that rightness has been lost! Reminding us of the grace and love of God that is now mocked IN THE CULTURE.

It isn't about the guns. It's about hate and distrust. The nation is divided into groups and political camps and every single one of them hates the other. There will be less and less opportunity to rationally and peacefully work out our cultural problems as time goes on. Fear is growing and the nation has become an armed camp. When there is no trust in government, citizens are forced to arm themselves. Where there is no justice, there can be no peace.

In the decision Warren v. District of Columbia the supreme court ruled that police are not obligated to defend citizens. What remains is for them to investigate, to draw caulk lines on the street around the fallen bodies of those who have been victims. When seconds count the police are minutes away. In this charged atmosphere, voices calling for calm are lost in the shouting. The culture dies screaming.

Was Newtown an isolated incident or is it a part of divine judgment? Many shout God Bless America, but is this evidence of blessing? Ask the dead children. Ask the mourning parents. They remain silent. Their words and what happened to them is lost upon a nation that is tearing itself apart. God is not blessing America. Not any more. America has turned its back upon Holy kindness and chosen violence and murder and rebellion. We are drinking the cup of bloody hell we have poured out on others and hypocritically ask where God went. God has left town because we told Him to leave us alone - to stop interfering in our culture.

It's the culture, not the guns.

but that's just me, hollering from the choir loft...

[Choir Loft]

http://www.infowars.com/ron-paul-the-fo ... secession/

In the aftermath of petitions from all 50 states to secede being posted on the White House website and signed by over a million Americans, the secessionist movement has been portrayed as anti-American, unpatriotic and even treasonous. In reality, as Ron Paul has emphasized, it is as American as apple pie and George Washington.

Paul updated his thoughts on secession during an appearance on C-Span today, noting how “The founders believed in it, there’s no prohibition in the Constitution against secession,� adding that the union was voluntary and therefore secession was also voluntary under the tenth amendment.

“They want to put them on a list that they’re committing treason, put them in prison or throw them out of the country – what about the First Amendment,� asked Paul in response to calls by some on the left to have pro-secessionists deported.

“The principle of secession is very important, not so much for the purpose of seceding, but the purpose of saying to the federal government ‘if you mistreat us that’s what we might consider’,� said Paul, noting that New England talked about secession in the early 19th century and was not condemned for doing so.


Read the rest here -- http://www.infowars.com/ron-paul-the-fo ... secession/

IGNORANCE. It's all about political ignorance. Many talk about the constitution and Declaration of Independence who've never read either document. Kind of like the Bible or the Qur'an. Most who hold to the words in those documents have no idea what's really written there - or its intent.

Superficially, accusations of treason toward those who are proponents of secession are inaccurate. The most complete term to describe the political position of a secessionist is SEDITION. Look it up. Big difference. Sedition allows for a form of patriotism while treason is the absolute absence of it.

The political pattern of the US government is a Federal government supported by state governments. If anyone is going to petition for secession it is rightly by state governments, not individual citizens.

Go back and read Civil War history. Secession is accomplished by the state house, not from Billy Bob's house down in the hollow.

Secessionists ought to make their positions known to their elected STATE representatives. The Feds don't care one way or the other. Do you blame them?

but that's just me, hollering from the choir loft...

[Choir Loft]

http://www.infowars.com/ron-paul-the-fo ... secession/

In the aftermath of petitions from all 50 states to secede being posted on the White House website and signed by over a million Americans, the secessionist movement has been portrayed as anti-American, unpatriotic and even treasonous. In reality, as Ron Paul has emphasized, it is as American as apple pie and George Washington.

Paul updated his thoughts on secession during an appearance on C-Span today, noting how “The founders believed in it, there’s no prohibition in the Constitution against secession,� adding that the union was voluntary and therefore secession was also voluntary under the tenth amendment.

“They want to put them on a list that they’re committing treason, put them in prison or throw them out of the country – what about the First Amendment,� asked Paul in response to calls by some on the left to have pro-secessionists deported.

“The principle of secession is very important, not so much for the purpose of seceding, but the purpose of saying to the federal government ‘if you mistreat us that’s what we might consider’,� said Paul, noting that New England talked about secession in the early 19th century and was not condemned for doing so.


Read the rest here -- http://www.infowars.com/ron-paul-the-fo ... secession/

I count myself among those who believe that the US Federal government is too bloated over-extended and debauched to rule in the best interests of the American people.

Powerful interests now control policy at the Federal level. The influence these interests have upon all of us cannot be removed from power apart from secession. They are far too well established and do not yield to popular opinion, election or court rulings. The oligarchs rule. Not us.

The question that stands paramount in any discussion ought to be whether the American people WANT secession. Unfortunately the answer is no.

In order for secession to succeed, it must have wise influential leadership at the state level, for that is the point where secession begins or fails, not at the individual level. There is no state capital in the land where competent respected leadership has stood up in support of secession. Every time a rally or large meeting is held these persons are invited to attend. They never do. Either they are cowards or they realize that too much of their political bread and butter comes from Washington DC. In short, there is no leadership. Ergo, secession cannot get traction or hope for success.

In order for secession to succeed, it must have the support of a large number of people within a state. It doesn't have to be a majority, but it does have to be a large number and it does have to include most members of the social structure. Too many American citizens today are parasites upon the Federal system. They depend in one way or another upon Federal money, healthcare support, or Federally assisted programs to make a living. None of these would support a group of secessionists. Ergo, secession cannot succeed in this atmosphere.

In order for secession to succeed, the status quo must disintegrate. Either financial collapse or governmental breakdown or a combination of external factors might cause a major disruption in Federal governance. In such a case, secession might succeed. Unfortunately such a situation is highly unlikely. We were closer to financial collapse during the Great Depression than at any other time, but the Federal government proved it's ability to suppress any sort of organized opposition quickly and viciously. Today with unimaginable hi tech tools, the ability to oppress and intimidate the masses is far easier to sustain than at any other time in history. Ergo, secession cannot succeed or even gain substantial popularity or support.

I wish it were otherwise, but the fact is that we as a nation need to find some other way to redress our grievances with the government. Unfortunately, most simply don't care to even bother to vote. In this is our downfall as a great nation guaranteed. We shall henceforth live as droids in the proud new fascist police state we've constructed. There will be no secession or even the whisper of it. There will only be growing tyranny.

Alexander Solzhenitsyn said that the reason the people of Russia suffered so terribly under the Soviet heel was that they had forgotten God. Unfortunately so has America. And so shall we also suffer at the hands of the oppressors of our own making.

Welcome home, America. You have got the government you deserve.

and that's just me, hollering from the choir loft...