Religion vs relationsip (with God)

[Elijah John]

From another thread (replying to Tam):

"I notice in may of your posts you are careful to make the distinction between "religion and faith" I read that as a distinction between "religion and relationship") to God or Christ)

Doesn't religion, (ideally) help one to RELATE to God, and in the case of Christianity to have a relationship with Christ?

I know Roman Catholicism emphasizes relationship with Christ through the Word (liturgy of the Word, readings etc.) and the liturgy of the Eucharist, (the body of Christ). And of course, prayers.

But in the final anyalysis, isn't relationship with God based on prayer, which of course, includes faith that God hears and answers?"

---------------

Question for debate, what (if any) is the difference between religion and relationship (with God/Christ)?


_____________

[Elijah John]

Question for debate, what (if any) is the difference between religion and relationship (with God/Christ)?

This statement has usually been used by some American Evangelicals to describe the beliefs of Roman Catholics or other confessions that use ritual in their worship. It suggests that those Christians cannot commune with God on a personal level or have any personal, individual revelation from God.

Why would ritual preclude personal relationship with Christ and God? And isn't prayer all about relationship?

And isn't ritual, communal prayer?

And it is not as though congregants are not encouraged to pursue solitary prayer and meditation as well, they are.

So why, (in this case) would RCC be considered non-relational in respect to God or Jesus?

[JLB32168]

Why would ritual preclude personal relationship with Christ and God?

I agree. I just wanted to point out the fact that “religion not relationship� is usually used to impugn the word “religion� as one that doesn’t involve a relationship on the part of that religion’s devotee.

[Elijah John]

Why would ritual preclude personal relationship with Christ and God?

I agree. I just wanted to point out the fact that “religion not relationship� is usually used to impugn the word “religion� as one that doesn’t involve a relationship on the part of that religion’s devotee.

Understood. I think you are right about that, it is usually a distinction made by Evangelicals and Fundamentalists, in order to impugn other approaches to Jesus, and if I may add, to claim a special, exclusive relationship for themselves.

In effect, it seems to me a variation on the whole John 14.6 thing, only their way (it is claimed) is the ONLY way to Jesus.

[bluethread]

Perhaps a more useful definition of religion might be: "the belief in a god or in a group of gods" and/or "an organized system of beliefs, ceremonies, and rules used to worship a god or a group of gods"

I'll go with that one as well! Perhaps you could rewrite the dictionary (haha).

Hugs Mr. Z!!!!

I would agree with Zz, with the note that the biblical view is that religion is part if belief, an integral part, but just a part none the less. Therefore, I believe the first is a definition of theism and the second is the correct definition of religion in a biblical sense. That said, I would see "worship a god" as a broad concept that would include submission to inanimate objects and philosophical principles.

[Elijah John]

The word "religion" ought not be used as a pejorative, as such usage is un-Biblical.

As Jesus brother James states:

"James 1:27New International Version (NIV)

27 RELIGION that God our Father accepts as pure and faultless is this: to look after orphans and widows in their distress and to keep oneself from being polluted by the world." (caps my emphasis)

Religion is all about relationship. How one relates to God, and how one relates to our fellow man.

[OnceConvinced]

Well, religion is walking by sight. Everything about it is of the world and seen. The buildings, the rules, the clothing, the doctrines, the holy books (and any accompanying writing/catechisms/magazines/etc, etc), the art and icons, the visible leaders and visible symbols and tools (crosses, rosaries, little shrines, etc, etc). The Bible is a sight tool. Not a faith tool. A sight tool. Something visible.

Well as a Christian you would normally perform many religious rituals such as these ones:

Saying grace before meals,
Attending church every Sunday morning
Baptism
Communion
Prayer meetings
Raising your hands to god in worship
Closing your eyes when praying
Standing together in a congregation and singing
Holding hands during worship or prayer
Altar calls
The laying on of hands
Annointing with oil
Chanting the lord's prayer
Quiet times
Speaking in tongues
Holy laughter
Being slain in the spirit
Spiritual warfare

These are all things that Christians do which would be considered “walking�. So it seems to me the average Christian is indeed involved in religion.

Here is a link to a blog I made about a typical church service. It’s chocka block full of religious rituals:
http://reckersworld.jimdo.com/religion/ ... is-church/

Do all those who claim to have a relationship with Christ and God truly have one, or do they have a "relationship" with their particular 'church/sect/denomination'?

If what Christians have is a relationship with God, then it’s truly deficient. I wrote some observations about relationships (and God) here.

http://reckersworld.jimdo.com/religion/ ... -with-god/

It’s hard to claim you have a relationship with a God who acts like the character mentioned in there.

Also let's not forget that James refers to Christianity as a religion and never says anything about it being a relationship with God.

Jam 1:26 & 27 If anyone considers himself religious and yet does not keep a tight rein on his tongue, he deceives himself and his religion is worthless. Religion that God our Father accepts as pure and faultless is this: to look after orphans and widows in their distress and to keep oneself from being polluted by the world.

Also would you be able to post scriptures that say Christianity as a relationship with god rather than a religion? I think this whole "relationship with God" thing is completely unbiblical and definitely not of Jesus. I believe it's simply a Christian fantasy.

[tam]

Peace to you.

Well, religion is walking by sight. Everything about it is of the world and seen. The buildings, the rules, the clothing, the doctrines, the holy books (and any accompanying writing/catechisms/magazines/etc, etc), the art and icons, the visible leaders and visible symbols and tools (crosses, rosaries, little shrines, etc, etc). The Bible is a sight tool. Not a faith tool. A sight tool. Something visible.

Well as a Christian you would normally perform many religious rituals such as these ones:

Saying grace before meals,
Attending church every Sunday morning
Baptism
Communion
Prayer meetings
Raising your hands to god in worship
Closing your eyes when praying
Standing together in a congregation and singing
Holding hands during worship or prayer
Altar calls
The laying on of hands
Annointing with oil
Chanting the lord's prayer
Quiet times
Speaking in tongues
Holy laughter
Being slain in the spirit
Spiritual warfare

These are all things that Christians do which would be considered “walking�. So it seems to me the average Christian is indeed involved in religion.

Here is a link to a blog I made about a typical church service. It’s chocka block full of religious rituals:
http://reckersworld.jimdo.com/religion/ ... is-church/

I do not go to "church services".

I am the Church. The Church is the Body of Christ, of which I am a member. So I can neither go to or leave Church. One is a member of the Church that belongs to Christ... every day.


The one thing from your list that I 'do' is what you call communion. I do so because my Lord said that we are to do this, or we have no part in Him and no life in us. I do this daily (as the Israelites ate the manna every day, and Christ is the true bread from heaven; the daily bread we ask God to provide), but how often others do is between them and their Lord. I would not seek to set rules upon others, or infringe upon their freedom in Christ, or try to insert myself between them and Christ. That is what religion does.

The rest must be religious things. I do not even know what some of them are.

(Oh, and since prayer is supposed to be done in private as my Lord has said, I don't know how one would know if others pray with eyes opened or closed)

Do all those who claim to have a relationship with Christ and God truly have one, or do they have a "relationship" with their particular 'church/sect/denomination'?

If what Christians have is a relationship with God, then it’s truly deficient. I wrote some observations about relationships (and God) here.

http://reckersworld.jimdo.com/religion/ ... -with-god/

It’s hard to claim you have a relationship with a God who acts like the character mentioned in there.

I have not looked at your list, so I will have to get back to you on it.

Also let's not forget that James refers to Christianity as a religion and never says anything about it being a relationship with God.

Jam 1:26 & 27 If anyone considers himself religious and yet does not keep a tight rein on his tongue, he deceives himself and his religion is worthless. Religion that God our Father accepts as pure and faultless is this: to look after orphans and widows in their distress and to keep oneself from being polluted by the world.

He does not mention Christianity at all. It is also the only place the word 'religion' is used, if I remember correctly. Perhaps one more place. It does not refer to an organized religion at all. I think the word meant piety or pious actions. I will have to look it up again.

Also would you be able to post scriptures that say Christianity as a relationship with god rather than a religion? I think this whole "relationship with God" thing is completely unbiblical and definitely not of Jesus. I believe it's simply a Christian fantasy.

[/quote]

I would neither post scriptures to say that, or say it myself. Christianity is a religion.


Also, if you would note in the OP, the quote from me is regarding religion versus faith. But rather than start a new thread, on that specifically, I worked with what EJ had posted, since it involved something I said. But I have never used the expression, relationship, not religion.

I have said that I have faith, not religion.

Interestingly, there are former believers here who have said to me that they used to like to think (and use the expression) that they had a relationship over religion. I cannot recall if you are one of those people or not, but if you are, it is interesting that you did not know then that this was not a biblical term. Regardless, all who have pm'd me about this or spoken about it on the board, upon questioning, had religion and ritual, such as you listed above.


I do not have that.

I do what my Lord says to do. Not what any religion or any "men" tell me to do.


Hopefully, this thread will clear that up.


Peace again to you,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy

[Elijah John]

[Replying to post 17 by tam]

Tammy, in another post you said this:

"Faith, however, is based upon what is HEARD, in the spirit, from the Spirit (Christ). Those who walk by faith are LISTENING to the Spirit. They are HEARING, and as long as their faith is not dead, they are also obeying.

Using what is written in the sight tool to help others to see the difference between walking by faith and walking by sight:

Abraham did not have a Bible to read when he heard God tell him to leave his land (or anything else). He did not have a religion to tell him what to do. (In fact, he was being called out of his father's people and religion, due to the practices they had embraced). Abraham HEARD, believed, and obeyed. Abraham walked by faith.

Noah did not read somewhere that he should build the ark. No religion told him to do so. He heard, and obeyed. He heard, put faith in the One he heard, and then proved His faith and his love by obeying"



EJ responds:..

Tammy you tout faith in Christ and being a part of the body of Christ over religion, and you make a distinction..fair enough. But consider....

You say walking by faith is based on "hearing in the Spirit" and distinguish that from "walking by sight" which you say, is what religion does using "sight tools"

You mention how Abraham and Noah walked by faith by hearing in the Spirit and obeying. They had no Bible, which you list as a "sight tool" presumably of religion.

Question, how would you even know about Abraham or Noah if it weren't for this sight tool of the Christian religion known as the Bible?

Unless you learned of these Bible personalities directly from God, via the Spirit of Christ, WITHOUT ever having opened the sight tool known as the Bible.

So in effect, aren't you too practicing "religion" and walking by sight? (as well as by faith?)

My point is there is nothing wrong with religion, that Christianity is a religion, that religion is all about relationship with one's fellow man, and with God, by faith.

[tam]

Peace to you Elijah John.

[Replying to post 17 by tam]

Tammy, in another post you said this:

"Faith, however, is based upon what is HEARD, in the spirit, from the Spirit (Christ). Those who walk by faith are LISTENING to the Spirit. They are HEARING, and as long as their faith is not dead, they are also obeying.

Using what is written in the sight tool to help others to see the difference between walking by faith and walking by sight:

Abraham did not have a Bible to read when he heard God tell him to leave his land (or anything else). He did not have a religion to tell him what to do. (In fact, he was being called out of his father's people and religion, due to the practices they had embraced). Abraham HEARD, believed, and obeyed. Abraham walked by faith.

Noah did not read somewhere that he should build the ark. No religion told him to do so. He heard, and obeyed. He heard, put faith in the One he heard, and then proved His faith and his love by obeying"



EJ responds:..

Tammy you tout faith in Christ and being a part of the body of Christ over religion, and you make a distinction..fair enough. But consider....

You say walking by faith is based on "hearing in the Spirit" and distinguish that from "walking by sight" which you say, is what religion does using "sight tools"

You mention how Abraham and Noah walked by faith by hearing in the Spirit and obeying.

Yes, to show those who need to see an example in the hopes that they would be able to get a sense of the truth of what it means to walk by faith.

We are so trained to walk by sight, some don't even know it is possible to walk entirely by faith. So it is something that most people (including myself) have to learn.

They had no Bible, which you list as a "sight tool" presumably of religion.

Just a sight tool. Regardless of who or what uses it. Those who wrote the gospels were not religions, and Revelation was given to John and John was told to write it down. (one cannot fully understand scripture unless it is opened to them, and one certainly needs the Spirit to understand Revelation - which needs to be revealed)

Question, how would you even know about Abraham or Noah if it weren't for this sight tool of the Christian religion known as the Bible?

I might not, although it is only Christ I need to know. Or I might know through word of mouth, or from the Spirit Himself.

Unless you learned of these Bible personalities directly from God, via the Spirit of Christ, WITHOUT ever having opened the sight tool known as the Bible.

So in effect, aren't you too practicing "religion" and walking by sight? (as well as by faith?)

I walked by sight before my Lord taught me to walk by faith. It is not as easy to walk by faith as it is to walk by sight. Takes practice and training - like anything worth having/knowing/doing.


But I don't think I said that reading the bible is religious. Only that the bible is a sight tool. For people who need to SEE. Even a person who walks by faith may (think they) need to look something up in the bible to see it, even if they have heard it, because they are doubting what they have heard.

My point is there is nothing wrong with religion, that Christianity is a religion, that religion is all about relationship with one's fellow man, and with God, by faith.

[/quote]

I have to disagree, respectfully.


Religion teaches some truth and also some lies. Therefore, there is something wrong with religion. Religion does some good things, and also some bad things. Therefore, there is something wrong with religion.

Lies, murder (burning heretics at the stake), shunning (essentially treating a person as though they are dead, often making them long for death, and sometimes causing them to commit suicide and make that longing a reality), inquisitions, forced conversions, judging, condemning, spreading hatred (and religions do this as well)... these are bad things. Therefore, there is something wrong with religion. And before someone states that it is man who is imperfect and doing these things; that is true, but it is the religion (which is from man) that is ordering the things I have listed here.


Lies do not come from Christ. Christ does not teach murder, or shunning, or lack of mercy, or lack of love, or hatred (even for enemies), or forcing people to convert, or condemnation, etc, etc. I know that you, EJ, know this, so my words are just in general.

But religion teaches and does these things, some to a great extent, some to a lesser extent. Religion teaches some lies and some truth. Some good and some bad.


One would think that after all this time man would have learned that he should go to and eat from the Tree of Life. Rather than going to and eating from any tree that offers both good and bad.


Just something to think (and ask) about.



Peace to you,
your servant and a slave of Christ,
tammy

[OnceConvinced]

I do not go to "church services".

So you are like the soldier in God's army who won't go to military training? Or the student who won't go to school? Or the chef who refuses to go into the kitchen?

I am the Church. The Church is the Body of Christ, of which I am a member. So I can neither go to or leave Church. One is a member of the Church that belongs to Christ... every day.

Sounds very much like a religious belief.

The one thing from your list that I 'do' is what you call communion.

So you don't prayer regularly? Not before meals? Not in quiet times? You don't read your bible regularly? Those things are very much religious rituals, much like a Muslim turns and faces Mecca.

I do so because my Lord said that we are to do this, or we have no part in Him and no life in us.

Yes, much like any religion you are expected to do things if you wish to please your God. Your God is a dictator just like all the others. I don't see how you can then claim it's not a religion.

I do this daily (as the Israelites ate the manna every day, and Christ is the true bread from heaven; the daily bread we ask God to provide), but how often others do is between them and their Lord.

Much like a muslim may bow down each day at a certain time and pray towards Mecca. That's a religious ritual.

I would not seek to set rules upon others, or infringe upon their freedom in Christ, or try to insert myself between them and Christ. That is what religion does.

And it's what Christianity does. It's what the bible does. Sets rules upon others.

(Oh, and since prayer is supposed to be done in private as my Lord has said, I don't know how one would know if others pray with eyes opened or closed)

Do you close your eyes? It's a very religious thing to do.

Have you never seen others praying? Have you ever been in a public place where a prayer has been done? Perhaps you have your eyes closed and you don't look?

Also let's not forget that James refers to Christianity as a religion and never says anything about it being a relationship with God.

Jam 1:26 & 27 If anyone considers himself religious and yet does not keep a tight rein on his tongue, he deceives himself and his religion is worthless. Religion that God our Father accepts as pure and faultless is this: to look after orphans and widows in their distress and to keep oneself from being polluted by the world.

He does not mention Christianity at all.

I doubt he would as Christianity is more of a modern term. He probably never used it, but what he is describing is exactly what Jesus taught. Caring for others and keeping oneself from sin.

It is also the only place the word 'religion' is used, if I remember correctly. Perhaps one more place. It does not refer to an organized religion at all. I think the word meant piety or pious actions. I will have to look it up again.

If you are following Jesus's instructions and helping the poor and trying to remain free of sin, then you are practicing the religion that James is describing.

I have said that I have faith, not religion.

You have admitted to conducting religious rituals like communion. Therefore you are religious.

I do what my Lord says to do. Not what any religion or any "men" tell me to do.

Which is why you practice religious rites like communion and prayer. God expects them.

It seems one of your main claims is that instructions made my men is religion, but instructions made by God is not. However you can't show your God to be any more real than any other God. They too claim their instructions are from God too. It's you that seems to think they are man made instructions. You elevate your holy books higher than theirs, claiming your books to be something special. However looking at your holy book it looks like the work of man to us non-believers. No different to the other religions. Only fellow Christians are going to agree that your religion is not religion. I'm sure nobody else would.